Siege weapon and collateral dmg
- Thread starter df1_2
- Start date
JonnyB
Workaholic
edited. thank you
MrCynical
Deity
You're correct that siege units are immune to collateral damage, but they don't make very good defensive stacks. They don't receive defensive bonuses from terrain and city defense, and they also tend to have a much lower base strength than their contemporary units.
Seige weapons are terrible defenders. Their strengths are their ability to bombard defenses and cause collateral damage. The only benefit to them not receiving collateral damage is your trebs will be at full strength when they attack.
They're only good for attacking cities and stacks.
They're only good for attacking cities and stacks.
Mango said:
Yesterday I played a game, where the computer got artillery before me. I had absolutly no chance, because I defended with Machine gunners that got destroyed by collateral damage...
And I could not harm them with my cannon collateral damage either. For me this game is a rush for cannons and artillery now...
largedarryl
Prince
Actually df1_2 your machine gunners do not get damaged by collatoral damage (they are considered siege units). You'r machine gunners got raped because artillery have str 18 and i believe a 50% advantage attacking siege units.
largedarryl said:
ahh, ok, but still, dont you agree that artillery is far far better than infantery or something else in general?
10 infantery vs 10 artillery...
The 10 artillery win in both offense and defence if they are in the same stack, right?
MrCynical
Deity
The artillery would probably come out ahead when attacking, since the collateral damage would counterbalance their lower strength. When defending though the artillery will almost certainly come out worse. They have a lower stregth to start with, their collateral damage does them no good, and they won't get and defensive bonuses from the terrain, which the infantry would.
Trebuchets are the best unit in the world for city attacking. And they do more defense reduction than canons!
largedarryl
Prince
Siege weapons are cetianly one of the most important military units in the game. They offset this by making seige units the absolute worst defensive units of an era. Basically if you are at war with another civ, you should almost do anything possible to destroy as many seige units as possible. The potential damage a seige unit could do is absolutely devastating.
df1_2 in your comparison, 10 artillery is a very dangerous stack, but infantry have a str 20 vs str 18. If we do not take into account any promotions(although in almost every game I have played, infantry will have better promotions then the artillery).
If the infantry attack it will be a 20 vs 18 for every battle. This will be a good advantage for the infantry.
If the artillery attack it will be a 18 vs 20*defense modifier for the first few attacks. Then depending on how much collateral damage the artillery would do, the last 6 infantry would be easy picking for the artillery.
The second comparison is that the infantry only cost 140 hammers(1400 total) vs 150 hammers(1500total). This would mean you could almost get 11 infantry for the cost of 10 artillery.
df1_2 in your comparison, 10 artillery is a very dangerous stack, but infantry have a str 20 vs str 18. If we do not take into account any promotions(although in almost every game I have played, infantry will have better promotions then the artillery).
If the infantry attack it will be a 20 vs 18 for every battle. This will be a good advantage for the infantry.
If the artillery attack it will be a 18 vs 20*defense modifier for the first few attacks. Then depending on how much collateral damage the artillery would do, the last 6 infantry would be easy picking for the artillery.
The second comparison is that the infantry only cost 140 hammers(1400 total) vs 150 hammers(1500total). This would mean you could almost get 11 infantry for the cost of 10 artillery.
Bushface
Deity
SAM infantry seem to be considered a sort of semi-siege unit. In a city being attacked by land forces, they don't become the primary defender until other, maybe weaker, units have gone (but before true siege units like Cannon). Against air attack, if the SAM doesn't make a successful interception then the attack will not be directed against the SAM if there are other defenders available, but the SAM will suffer collateral damage from a successful air strike. I have also noticed that a Bunker protects only the unit being directly attacked, which means that in a city with 2 SAMs a stealth strike will do 5% damage to the attacked SAM and 20% to the other. Curiously unlike real war: why go for a unit lurking in a bunker when there others unprotected ? It would seem to me to be more realistic for a bunker to protect against collateral damage rather than against direct attack.
Atm I play deity as French on the Earth 1490 AD Warlord scenario (its almost identical as the earth 1000 AD one, but more fun!), and its really tough. I rushed for artillery and got them before the computer. I got in a really tough war with Russia who spammed tons of Cossacs.
So, I gave up my city that had direct border to them, and had the cossacs go in to my borders on my roads. They came with 20 cossacs in a stack etc, and I had mayby 60 % of his numbers but in artillery and a few mashine guns. A lot of battles I won by destroying like 10 cossacs and loosing none of the artillerys! Yes, I find siege unit crazy crazy OP. I think its very fun though, because I abuse them.
So, I gave up my city that had direct border to them, and had the cossacs go in to my borders on my roads. They came with 20 cossacs in a stack etc, and I had mayby 60 % of his numbers but in artillery and a few mashine guns. A lot of battles I won by destroying like 10 cossacs and loosing none of the artillerys! Yes, I find siege unit crazy crazy OP. I think its very fun though, because I abuse them.
Mango said:
Seige weapons are terrible defenders if you leave them in the city to passively defend. But of course, you use them to attack stacks attempting to take your city. In that role, they are probably the most important defender you can have - if you are facing a large stack or two, rather than several groups of 2 or 3 units. From what you say above, I suspect you at least partially agree with me on this.
I agree siege weapons are a tremendous weapon in the AI arsenal, but simple military tactics can mitigate AI using them to great effect. Case in point. Ragnar was friends with no one but the Celts, but they were across the continent from me. Everyone surrounding me was friendly or pleased and hated Ragnar and Brennus. Eventually war broke out and I was asked to join in. Having no room for expansion, I knew this would be my opportunity to expand, and not upset any of my neighbors, so I sent a potent stack of artillery, calvary, and infantry.
It was 10 turns away to even reach the borders of Ragnar so I knew it wouldn't be easy to resupply. I was a little too cocky because Ragnar had cavalry, muskets, and grenadiers as his best units. I thought my artillery and infantry would kick butt, but as soon as I crossed his border I was hit by a stack with 4 trebs and assorted units that nearly took me down. I survived, but just barely. I lost only one unit, but all were badly damaged. I immediately sent all the reinforcements I could muster and began cranking units instead of buildings (I had been going for a cultural win). With my suviving stack I healed for a couple turns and headed for his nearest city. Luckily it was not heavily defended and I took the city which gave me a place to heal quicker. I holed up for a few turns and by the time I was ready to venture out, my reinforcements began to arrive. I moved on and took three more cities and then smacked his capital, and took it, but my stack was heavily damaged again, and I sat in the capital waiting to heal up again.
Here is the tactic that saved me. I set a cavalry unit out as a picket line to warn me of any approaching units from the direction I expected his forces to come. Sure enough here he came with 12 trebs and a rifleman. The condition of my units would have been devastated if he had gotten closer with the trebs. The cavalry unit attacked and retreated into the city and then every unit I had from the city attacked and even with diminshed strength, knocked the trebs down until there were only two left. The next turn I took them out and resupplied and healed. By the time I healed another stack of 10 trebs approached but my cavalry screen again warned me and I took them all out before they could bombard me. By that time I figured Ragnar must be on his last legs because the next stack that came was one catapult. I had to go to bed at that point, and will finish him off tonight, but it really taught me the importance of seeing what is coming and hitting the siege weapon stacks before they hit you.
Just some thoughts.
It was 10 turns away to even reach the borders of Ragnar so I knew it wouldn't be easy to resupply. I was a little too cocky because Ragnar had cavalry, muskets, and grenadiers as his best units. I thought my artillery and infantry would kick butt, but as soon as I crossed his border I was hit by a stack with 4 trebs and assorted units that nearly took me down. I survived, but just barely. I lost only one unit, but all were badly damaged. I immediately sent all the reinforcements I could muster and began cranking units instead of buildings (I had been going for a cultural win). With my suviving stack I healed for a couple turns and headed for his nearest city. Luckily it was not heavily defended and I took the city which gave me a place to heal quicker. I holed up for a few turns and by the time I was ready to venture out, my reinforcements began to arrive. I moved on and took three more cities and then smacked his capital, and took it, but my stack was heavily damaged again, and I sat in the capital waiting to heal up again.
Here is the tactic that saved me. I set a cavalry unit out as a picket line to warn me of any approaching units from the direction I expected his forces to come. Sure enough here he came with 12 trebs and a rifleman. The condition of my units would have been devastated if he had gotten closer with the trebs. The cavalry unit attacked and retreated into the city and then every unit I had from the city attacked and even with diminshed strength, knocked the trebs down until there were only two left. The next turn I took them out and resupplied and healed. By the time I healed another stack of 10 trebs approached but my cavalry screen again warned me and I took them all out before they could bombard me. By that time I figured Ragnar must be on his last legs because the next stack that came was one catapult. I had to go to bed at that point, and will finish him off tonight, but it really taught me the importance of seeing what is coming and hitting the siege weapon stacks before they hit you.
Just some thoughts.
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