Simple Solution for Weak Expansionist ability

[goodyhut]

My idea to solve the problem of expansionist civs getting jipped an ability that affects thier long term game wass simply to give ALL civs expansionist ability and then give the ones that alreaddy had expansionist ability another good ability. I also made it possible for all the civs to create scouts. Anyone else have any creative ways of solving this issue?

Download the completed modpack here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10788

 

[Fayadi]

Yeah I believe all civs are expansionist.......
Unless somebody really know how to define expansion
A scout to all civs are fair in early game
The non-expansionist civs now got another ability to make it good on long-term and i think it was a good idea but many people wont like it in my opinion they prefer original style so do I
I seriously think u have a good idea but
there are lots of ideas for the game right now,what u and me think is good may cause some unbalanceness

 

[Sirp]

I don't really like the idea of giving all civs scouts; it makes it too easy to explore too fast. Rather, I think only expansionist civs should have scouts, but they should have something else on top of this; perhaps cheaper granaries.

 

[Scout]

I like the idea of cheaper granaries, but I would not want to give all civs a scout.

Other possible perks for expansionist civs:
cheaper settlers
faster moving settlers
lower corruption penalty for large number of cities
faster moving scout

Actually, I saw a mod that combined faster moving settlers with a faster moving scout, and, when I tried it, I found it was too easy to dominate with an expansionist civ.

 

[msrsb]

I think instead expansionist civs, as well as the properties they have now, should be able to control their empire more efficiently than other civs.

How? Increase the area of influence of the Palace and FP, by making distance-from-Palace corruption less than for non-expansionist players.

E.g. if a non-expansionist civ's city 10 units of length away from the Palace/FP has 30% corruption, then an expansionist civ's city the same length away from the Palace/FP has only 25% corruption (figure just made up, I don't know the real workings of corruption and distance).

This would truely represent an expansionist ability.

S.

 

[Dan_In_Belgium]

Expansionest civs should build settelers and worlers at like half the cost. After all that's really what expansionest is. Also cheeper carvavals.

 

[Sam_Catchem]

I don't get it any more. I like the expansionists just the way they are. They get the scout which is awesome..and never get barbs out of goody huts. The worst they can do is get nothing out of them. You get a couple of them running around and you can hit the next age quick and set up a tech broker strat. Also, you can build granaries right off the bat! That is very important to pump out those settlers and expand quickly. The only time it truly hurts is if you are on an island. Even then though..you start with pottery and are that much closer to mapmaking. Seems to work for me..I used to hate it..but now..I really dig them expansionistic civs.

 

[goodyhut]

Thanks for the feedback so far. I would be interested in hearing if anyone thinks there are ways to improve this mod while still all civs having expansionist ability.

By the way, I have re-created the mod with the patch installed and posted in the thread I linked above. I don't know if it makes any difference, but I thought I would just in case. The 2 mods are created the same just one was created before the patch and the other after.

While this mod seems really balanced to play I would be interested in tinkering with it if anyone has any ideas...

 

[Rhandom]

Cheaper Granaries, aqueducts, hospitals and courthouses.

-or-

Settlers take 1 population away

-or-

Reduced size growth box

 

[FullofHoles]

It is my opinion that the Mounted Warriors of the Iriquois are sufficiently powerful that that particular civilization NEEDS some limiting factor. I say "Leave expansionism weak." I would win games as the Iriquois even if they had NO civ-specific abilities.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by FullofHoles
It is my opinion that the Mounted Warriors of the Iriquois are sufficiently powerful that that particular civilization NEEDS some limiting factor. I say "Leave expansionism weak." I would win games as the Iriquois even if they had NO civ-specific abilities.

Absolutely. I can usually run over my opponents with the Mounted Warriors. Very powerful. And nice feathers, too.

 

[Bugg]

Originally posted by Sam Catchem
I don't get it any more. I like the expansionists just the way they are. They get the scout which is awesome..and never get barbs out of goody huts. The worst they can do is get nothing out of them. You get a couple of them running around and you can hit the next age quick and set up a tech broker strat. Also, you can build granaries right off the bat! That is very important to pump out those settlers and expand quickly. The only time it truly hurts is if you are on an island. Even then though..you start with pottery and are that much closer to mapmaking. Seems to work for me..I used to hate it..but now..I really dig them expansionistic civs.
I agree totally, the early advantage in tech is killer, you can tech broker or dominate using tech. advantage. Also you sometimes get a settler from the goody hut within 3 or 4 rounds. That is already a huge advantage. If you give any other advantage except maybe on a small world, you will make it too easy to win. However, if you think you need one give the scout a defense point, so that the barbarians can't always kill them.

 

[Sparrowhawk]

IMHO, expansionist civs are not "weak" at all. Early exploration allows for much better strategic planning, and can also help you decide whether your starting position is horrible. Getting handfuls of free tech plus maybe an instant new city right off the bat are incredible advantages. A second city at the beginning makes civ growth that much easier, and gives you a leg up on starting wonders.

My favorite civ right now is the americans. They get all the expansionist abilities, and they also can build infrastructure to support the civ really quickly because they are industrious. An excellent combination if you ask me.

 

[Quokka]

I agree with the others on here who think that the Expansionist Civs are not totally useless, I like them as another type of strategy to play, but they are only really viable on larger more land mass maps.
I do think they get a bit jipped in the long run, after the initial pop from goody huts and exploration scouts become an essentially useless unit. You can use them to harass and block Settler/Spearmen teams before wars start, but not after.
Their weakness is that their Settlers still take just as long to exploit the exploration advantage as all the other civs. I would change the ability to include faster settlers. Discovering new lands and then getting people there defines expansion to me.
Granaries represent a solid infrastructure investment in the city that builds them, they are not feeling expansionistic when building a big city improvement, so that kills the cheaper granary in my book. Lower Corruption is in the Commercial Ability, and should stay there. The USSR was the largest empire on earth, and had expansionist policies, but it was hardly the least corrupt.

 

[markv]

No one has yet mentioned the best part of being expansionist: the increased chance of a foreign tribe joining your empire. I've played expansionist twice, and have had this happen both times. Let me tell you, doubling the size of your empire by 3050 BC really helps. Even if there is only, say, a 10% chance of a tribe joining your empire, the potential benefit is so great that it's worth the risk of getting nothing.

Non-expansionists can also get foreign tribes, but the odds seem on the order of 1/100. At least, I've only had it happen once as a non-expansionists.

 

[Cyrai]

What's with making them all stronger? They all start off very strong on a good map. Their quick access to goody huts, and the increased chance of the goody huts giving techs is incredibly powerful. I once played Russia and I had an awful research rate. By the end of the first age, I had discovered maybe 3 techs myself. Everything else was discovered through tribes. I think I even got things like Polytheism from those dudes. I outpaced everyone in research by super-huge amounts.

 

[funkymunky]

Why not somebody create a new unit that's just like a settler but cheaper and give them only to expansionist civs? I think maybe just one pop point? Or half shields.

 

[Rhandom]

I don't think anyone has claimed expansionist is useless, just weaker than all other civ abilities. The slight advantage in exploration is good only for about the first 50 turns of the game unless playing on a huge map or with few civs. The tech advantage is quickly surpassed by scientific civs, and the other civ abilities yeild significant advantages throughout the game. since you can't take advantage of you exploration because you get settlers and population at the same rate as others, and because you almost always end up trading maps in the first 2000 years anyway, expansionist just isn't very powerful, except in very specific situations. It is quite likely to get no advantage at all from the scout, if you end up being placed in a crowded environ.

I've played about 10 games with expansionists, and have got the extra settler from a hut once. The barbarians are hardly ever a threat when you find them, and I see them more as a chance to promote units.

Expansionist isn't just building lots of cities, its quickly expanding those cities. Granaries make perfect sense for expansionist mindsets, as they let you exploit your surroundings faster and build new settlers and workers faster.

 

[goodyhut]

Thanks for all the suggestions so far! I can see that while this solution is a good one it may be better to simply find a way to enhance the expansionist ability a little so that it has game long effects rather than giving everyone expansionist ability. I have heard cheaper settlers, cheaper workers, faster moving settlers, cheaper graneries, aquaducts, and courthouses.

I would like to create another mod using some of these ideas but I think if I used all of them it would be WAY unbalanced. What do you guys think of the ones I just mentioned would be best to help expansionist civs have game lasting effects?

 

[Magnus]

It is critical in this game to get a good head start! Yes, the expansionist civ's specific advantages end in about 50 turns, HOWEVER, the benefits of getting ahead lasts the whole game! There is no increased cost of tech whenever you find one in a hut, so every tech found is simply one that leaps you ahead research wise - that's a huge advantage - and remember, only GOOD things come out of scout-sprung huts, so not only do you not have barbarian problems, but you get something good instead of the barbs - I would trade that for the chance of getting an elite warrior anytime. And if you pop a settler in the first hut you find, you have essentially already won the game.