Simple warmongering diplomacy

[snarzberry]

Here is the general formula of how I go about diplomacy when I'm planning on doing some serious warmongering. Assume the game is on a highly populated continent (4 - 5 civs) or pangaea.

After early scouting DoF with as many far away civs as possible unless they denounce or war with each other, if so choose sides.

Give in to their demands for gold if they ask.

Sign first gen RAs with these Friends preferably. They won't be DoW broken in all likelihood.

Monitor who your Friends denounce. If it fits in with your plans then denounce them too.

Trade resources with nearby civs preferably. If they do DoW then it's a bonus to you for the resale. This could mean the difference via a rush-bought archer/walls or similar.

Build up an invasion force.

Try to bribe Friends to attack civs nearby to you.

DoW on nearby civ/s to you and puppet them all.

While this is happening your DoF with faraway civs will cushion the warmonger hate and allow you to sign another round of RAs, these have a higher chance of maturing and not being broken by DoW, while the rest of the world hates you for your bloodthirsty ways.

Use these RAs to speed you towards military upgrades.

Backstab.

 

[Deau]

I like the idea, will have to try that out when I get back home next week. I had been inclined to DoF immediate neighbors if I could do it around turns 25-40 and just delay my first invasion after the 50 turns elapsed. This was allowing me to not get DoW/swarmed in the early game but it also often caused me to either delay the first attacks far too much or force a super early backstab and sometimes just as bad, lead to "can't DoF far away civs because they didn't like my immediate neighbors I had DoFed"

 

[snarzberry]

Yeah I guess if you really know the route your war path will take then you can get away with an early nearby DoF with an aggressive civ as a buffer to them attacking, so long as there are other suitable targets while you wait for the effect to pass.

But I've also been thinking that since I'm going to attack them anyway, I don't really mind too much if they attack me first (so long as I survive - cities on hills with archers are important) as it's one less DoW I'll have to make myself. So if their initial attack wanes and they want peace, even for nothing, I deny it while I build up for the attack. Less negative modifiers with everyone else that way.

I've found if you backstab early then your chance of maintaining any kind of stable friendship is slim.

 

[Deau]

But I've also been thinking that since I'm going to attack them anyway, I don't really mind too much if they attack me first (so long as I survive - cities on hills with archers are important)

I've found if you backstab early then your chance of maintaining any kind of stable friendship is slim.

Yeah I think I'm still in the old mindset of not making any unit 'till barracks&HE are out for standard rushes and those early DoWs from neighbors are really threatening if I didn't get lucky enough to have a scout turned into an archer. I also almost always settle atop a luxury lately to leverage fewer DoWs by holding onto a bigger goldstack so unless I'm lucky enough to have a mining start, chances are it's on flat

and yeah, someone mentionned giving cities away as opposed to ripping neighbors off by selling them helped him recover from bad warmongering situations. I might try that when I'm forced into an early backstab but on such early backstab, I rarely have "so many bad cities" I want to get rid of and settling extras to giveaways doesn't really fit in my SPs plans.

 

[snarzberry]

This is why mining luxuries are the best. Settle on top of Gold/Gems/Silver hill? Yes please.

I'm dealing with the early AI attacks much better now after that period of OMFGWTF!!! we all went through after the patch. City defensibility is on my mind from turn 0 now. But I will also move onto calendar resources and settle for the early gold. It's rare the rush that your initial warrior, fortified on a good tile, and an archer in the city can't hold off. Being on a hill makes you extra-safe.

I've never though about giving away cities to help with warmongering hate, interesting. I'm tossing up between wanting to know exactly how it works, as in give me the numbers, and just enjoying using trial and error to eventually find out what works. Looking under the hood can spoil the fun for me sometimes. But here I feel like we're so in the dark that a bit of illumination might help.

 

[Deau]

I've never though about giving away cities to help with warmongering hate, interesting. I'm tossing up between wanting to know exactly how it works, as in give me the numbers, and just enjoying using trial and error to eventually find out what works. Looking under the hood can spoil the fun for me sometimes. But here I feel like we're so in the dark that a bit of illumination might help.

Well, if an AI that has a border neighboring or close to the city you have to offer, you can get a rough view of value "by having it priced through gold trade". I recall selling a border-shared size 4 city for about 1200g to a "friendly civ". That's a huge return value for a captured city. I don't know if when thrown as a gift, it contributes for "it's full value" or "it's gimped value" towards helping the relationship but a 1200g from an AI would definitely lean me towards being very happy even if they DoWed me every 10 turns after peace since the beginning of the game!

I would also expect it to not be strictly linear with the number of citizens so the relative value of a very tall city from say Ghandi's turnover would probably be insane...like take 3 cities from ghandi and turn 3 guarded/hostile civs to friendly ...wish it was that simple

 

[SilkwormTR]

What does AI consider a backstab?

a: You attack any civ that has friendly/neutral realtion with you

b: You attack to a civ that has declared friendship for you (DoF mutual or solo)

In my recent game attacking Rome soured all my future relationships and I could not even get a single RA. Got 2 with Spain and India (I got 3 cities of Spain and got capital + 1 city from India) but both were broken by DoW even though India had no military left. Probably bribed by Hiawatha.

I'm pretty sure my relationship was friends with Rome but I did not have a DoF from them.

 

[Lokos451]

This is why mining luxuries are the best. Settle on top of Gold/Gems/Silver hill? Yes please.

Hmmm, I never would have thought of this, I value mints too highly. But even if you prefer that, for gems there's no such loss. Might have to try that!

 

[bryanw1995]

What does AI consider a backstab?

a: You attack any civ that has friendly/neutral realtion with you

b: You attack to a civ that has declared friendship for you (DoF mutual or solo)

In my recent game attacking Rome soured all my future relationships and I could not even get a single RA. Got 2 with Spain and India (I got 3 cities of Spain and got capital + 1 city from India) but both were broken by DoW even though India had no military left. Probably bribed by Hiawatha.

I'm pretty sure my relationship was friends with Rome but I did not have a DoF from them.

IIRC, you must have an active DOF for it to be considered a "backstab".

 

[Deau]

As Bryan said, must have a DoF up to get a backstab. Denouncing or DoWing that civ will get you a backstab. Not sure if taking one of their CSs or pledged to protect CSs will get a backstab as well.