Single tile ocean expansion limit

[Bulldog Bats]

That is what they used to have (Civ 3 I think). You could venture out, but there was a decent chance you would sink.

But I think there should be some period of time before someone actually has the capacity to defend a random boat sailing around the coast.

 

[ae_savant]

Is there any mod to limit culture beyond one water tile? Something like one person said about no ocean tile expansion?

I'd love that and actually play CIV5 a lot more if there was. Right now the first thing I think about when I go to play CIV 5 is this ocean tile problem and how stupid it is and then rather than invest the time playing, find another game.

 

[cinattra]

Perhaps an easy partial solution to this would be to allow triremes to move onto an ocean tile so long as that is adjacent to a shore tile. This could be unlocked with Optics to reward Civs who take the naval technology's to enhance their exploration. It means you can't cross oceans but you can get around coastal tiles that have been claimed by other civs. It takes even cultural heavy Civs a while to claim ocean tiles (as they have such low yields) so it should make it easier to explore without changing to many game mechanics.

It gives good synergy with Optics which is the invention of tools that allow sailors to see further into the distance so they can traverse further from the coast.

I think in an older Civ triremes could enter an ocean tile but it had to end on a shore tile.

 

[cinattra]

I'd be okay with this idea. It'd make all the unique and non-unique pre astronomy ships a lot better for exploring and fighting.

I'd also be good with them being able to enter deep water, but taking Attrition penalties to do so. That'd make a push to something you can see worthwhile, but random exploring would be a deadly gamble.

Yep, taking attrition penalties for every movement in deep water.

 

[cinattra]

Is there any mod to limit culture beyond one water tile? Something like one person said about no ocean tile expansion?

I'd love that and actually play CIV5 a lot more if there was. Right now the first thing I think about when I go to play CIV 5 is this ocean tile problem and how stupid it is and then rather than invest the time playing, find another game.

I don't like the idea of limiting ocean tile cultural expansion. It could make coastal cities more vulnerable to attack if the tiles only expanded to coastal tiles.

 

[Redaxe]

I don't like the idea of limiting ocean tile cultural expansion. It could make coastal cities more vulnerable to attack if the tiles only expanded to coastal tiles.

Truth be told coastal cities have always been vulnerable to raids, particularly on the European Mediterranean coast for protection against Islamic Ottoman invasions. This is what required the great seafaring empires to maintain strong navies, in the same way that air superiority is seen as indispensable in all modern wars.

Perhaps allowing civs to claim ocean territory is something for a new World Congress Resolution. Until fairly recently no-one really bothered to claim the open ocean as sovereign territory because there wasn't any real value to it except around shipping and trade routes of course. But since technology has further improved commercial fishing and deep sea mining all nations with substantial coastlines want to claim ocean for reasons of economic security and resources.
This resolution could be unlocked by a later technology such as refrigeration and could perhaps also unlock deep sea fish and other ocean resources.

 

[Quineloe]

I think in an older Civ triremes could enter an ocean tile but it had to end on a shore tile.

in Civ 1, a trireme could enter ocean tiles and if it ended its move on the ocean tile, it had a chance to sink. I think the chance was around 50% for players and 1% for the AI.

However, the ability to sail the seas came a lot earlier in Civ 1 than in Civ 5. Renaissance era for the first ocean going vessel always feels very late to me.

 

[cinattra]

I definitely like this discussion about the oceans. Not enough attention was paid to it in Vanilla and then it got better with additional updates. Hopefully all of the ideas in some form could be added in the 6.

In a nutshell there is no one to say I can't claim the ocean tile two tiles or three tiles away from my city on the coast. Tipping the hat to realism would definitely mean ocean tiles don't get expanded into. Maybe ocean tiles don't get expanded into until all the usable land tiles and usable coastal tiles have been expanded into or something like that.

 

[RedThree]

I'd be okay with this idea. It'd make all the unique and non-unique pre astronomy ships a lot better for exploring and fighting.

I'd also be good with them being able to enter deep water, but taking Attrition penalties to do so. That'd make a push to something you can see worthwhile, but random exploring would be a deadly gamble.

My original thought was that a City couldn't expand their borders into Ocean tiles until Astronomy (can't work a tile you can't explore) but I much prefer the gamble of exploration early game.

 

[cinattra]

My original thought was that a City couldn't expand their borders into Ocean tiles until Astronomy (can't work a tile you can't explore) but I much prefer the gamble of exploration early game.

Heck both... the astronomy idea is good as well.

 

[iamdanno]

I really like the ocean attrition idea. Is this something that could be (easily) modded?

 

[Kurtbob]

Until the advent of trade units in BNW, I have always been irritated by culture preventing any form of movement through coastal and ocean tiles. This is particularly irritating when you look at specific maps. For example, a Europe map. Every Europe map is terrible for naval movement. Getting through the Baltic past Copenhagen, the English Channel, Gibraltar...even getting past Sardinia, Corsica, and Sicily in the Mediterranean is nigh impossible without open borders or a DOW.

There really should be far less restrictions on naval movement. People complain about 1up on land, but what about coastal units? How can a player put naval pressure on a city with an ancient navy when the coast is literally one or two tiles wide?

No cultural expansion in ocean hexes is a great idea in my opinion. I also think naval units should pass through the borders of other nations freely. If you or another player doesn't like it, build more naval units and physically block them. That's how it was done in CivII. Don’t want the enemy in your borders? Build forts and units to block them. Cultural border’s inclusion in CivIII was an amazing idea, but after playing both IV and V I think the Devs should rethink cultural borders and how they can be better used, or even dropped, to better the 1up system.

 

[bison21]

I actually think that it would make for a very nice unique ability for a sea-based civ. Something along the lines of "pre-renaissance era naval units can pass enemy territory regardless of Open boarder treaties" or a certain unit replacing triremes would be able to do so.

I don't think restrictions on ocean tiles for expanding are a viable idea. Think of coastal starts with additional islands nearby, it is just logical to expand beyond the ocean rather than grow inwards for desert or tundra.

 

[Ll1442]

I'd rather keep the cultural border expansion into ocean tiles. And then focus on the enforcements of one's borders. So anyone could pass through, unless some ships were present. Passing by cities u'd might take minor damage, depending on your relation.

if so, we could also discuss expanding further into ocean than 5 tiles, and taking some of those tiles during war. another diplomatic option would be to let others naval trade routes go through you territory, as you have ships to stop them if you didn't want them too.

 

[RedThree]

I will say that I do enjoy putting a City right near the mouth of a bay to blockade a Civ's navy and hopefully force a GPT/Open Borders treaty that is strongly in my favor, but it never quite pans out that way.

Another tangent on territory/attrition, I could see there being a "gold attrition" for a caravan/cargoships being in a territory that is not part of the deal. For example, if Egypt is sending a Cargo ship to Portugal, and it passes through Morocco's territory, then Morocco gets a small amount of GPT unless there is an Open Borders treaty. Acts as a sort of toll/tax system.

It would put an interesting spin on trade routes and add an enhancement for those unworked ocean tiles that develop on coastal cities.