So why people say that Japan's UA is "weak" for domination victory?

Dark Paladin X

Chieftain
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I mean, Japan's Bushido is really valuable for Domination. Do you know how much of a big difference it is to allow your units to fight in full strength even when damaged (particularly if you have units like Archers and Siege Units)? And with the fall patch, they made Japan even stronger (even Zeros don't cost oil) and the culture bonus from Fishing Boats and Atoll encourages rapid expansion and encouraging to build a lot of cities and capturing for your civilization (a really important aspect for Domination victory, you need to grab as much land as possible in order to control every capital city in the world. Not much land= not much strategic resources needed to conquer your enemies). I see Japan being very useful in Island/Archipelago maps and even Pangaea.

I'm sure that the fall patch makes people realize that Japan (IMHO) is the best civilization for Domination victory.
 
I mean, Japan's Bushido is really valuable for Domination. Do you know how much of a big difference it is to allow your units to fight in full strength even when damaged (particularly if you have units like Archers and Siege Units)? And with the fall patch, they made Japan even stronger (even Zeros don't cost oil) and the culture bonus from Fishing Boats and Atoll encourages rapid expansion and encouraging to build a lot of cities and capturing for your civilization (a really important aspect for Domination victory, you need to grab as much land as possible in order to control every capital city in the world. Not much land= not much strategic resources needed to conquer your enemies). I see Japan being very useful in Island/Archipelago maps and even Pangaea.

I'm sure that the fall patch makes people realize that Japan (IMHO) is the best civilization for Domination victory.

I wouldn't say THE best for domination (Zulus and Mongols), but the patch is a huge improvement.
 
It's not that they are bad, it's just that there are better civs. Civs with ranged UAs will out preform them simply because they kill before getting hit. Mongolia is better at domination and their UA is nigh useless because of warmonger penalties.
 
Japan isn't necessarily terrible for Domination, but I'd say they're a far cry from "the best" for Domination. Korea and Babylon are still science juggernauts, and the faster you tech, the faster you can obsolete enemy units; Rome can much more easily set up frontline production hubs in order to spam reinforcements, Russia will have both the production and strategics to be more spammy with early-mid units (Both being able to win a war of attrition by producing more units faster than the opponent); China can put a lot more Great Generals (both for their own bonuses and offensive citadels) up front; America can circumvent the visibility limitation on siege units and has great mid-late UUs; not to mention that in Island/Arch England will rule the roost between their UA and UU. There are a lot of contenders to consider that keep Japan out of reach from being called the best for domination.
 
Japan isn't necessarily terrible for Domination, but I'd say they're a far cry from "the best" for Domination. Korea and Babylon are still science juggernauts, and the faster you tech, the faster you can obsolete enemy units; Rome can much more easily set up frontline production hubs in order to spam reinforcements, Russia will have both the production and strategics to be more spammy with early-mid units (Both being able to win a war of attrition by producing more units faster than the opponent); China can put a lot more Great Generals (both for their own bonuses and offensive citadels) up front; America can circumvent the visibility limitation on siege units and has great mid-late UUs; not to mention that in Island/Arch England will rule the roost between their UA and UU. There are a lot of contenders to consider that keep Japan out of reach from being called the best for domination.

Yes, but Japan is much stronger now than in vanilla.
 
So why people say that Japan's UA is "weak" for domination victory?

Who says that? I need names and adresses. :sniper:

It's a solid mid tier civ. Nowhere near the Zulus, Poland or Babylon/Korea though.
 
Japan's UA isn't great because it mostly helps melee units which suck and because you shouldn't be losing ranged units at all. Japan gets two military UUs in very different eras that it can't conquer the world with (compare with Keshik+khan, longbowman, impi, siege towers, horse archers).

Basically Japan is built to be a warmonger civ but it's not as good as the other warmonger civs and the new metagame punished early war. Unfortunately Japan gets no kinds of development bonuses which puts it at a disadvantage compared to most civs, let alone warmonger civs.

Idk about how good the culture add is in the new patch, but I don't think it'd be excellent except on maps where you start with 2-3 coastal resources, then maybe you can expand fast with a tradition-liberty thing, but again idk.
 
I'm sure that the fall patch makes people realize that Japan (IMHO) is the best civilization for Domination victory.

Japan has moved from low tier to average tier. For domination, science civs are always better (science >>> all in any victory condition), and are civs with much more useful UUs for domination. Zulus are much much better than Japan in domination.

Yes, but Japan is much stronger now than in vanilla.

I disagree. Japan was an outstanding civ for domination in vanilla because damaged units did much less damage than full HP units. On G&K onwards, battle power from damaged units is barely noticeable, so is not a great improvement.

Culture bonuses are not that great, sure helps a little, and can boost tourism a bit later, but I would take poland free policies over it any day.
 
It seems to me that if you are waiting for radar to win the game, you are waiting too long. Either get a start on elite units early or be the first to artillery. For me, bombers are always to mop up the last civ or two.
 
I've always had good games with Japan. I wouldn't call them top tier but definitely a decent civ.

I like how they gave Samurais a longer shelf life since they don't go obsolete until rifling but I wish they would've gotten a slight bump in str too to make them more competitive with musketmen. Maybe a str of 23 or 24.

Another bump that could have been cool for their UA would have been to give them a maintenance reduction on air units similar to the Zulu's, Germany's and Ottoman's UAs. It'd work well with the zero not needing oil anymore.
 
It seems to me that if you are waiting for radar to win the game, you are waiting too long. Either get a start on elite units early or be the first to artillery. For me, bombers are always to mop up the last civ or two.

Totally agree there, it's what I've always said about America and their B17s.

One change in BNW that does make waiting until the end for domination work is the new cultural victory. Play culturally most of the game then waste your main cultural competitors at the end. Steal their works and wonders to help influence the other civs faster. Japan might be a good "predatory cultural victory" autocracy civ.
 
Do you know how much of a big difference it is to allow your units to fight in full strength even when damaged (particularly if you have units like Archers and Siege Units)?

I do, in fact. It's, at best (when a unit is nearly dead), a 33% bonus. Except - because post G&K introduced the 100 hp mechanic - units don't die as easily now and you'll almost never have units almost dead and still in the fray. Usually, your units in the fray will be getting somewhere around a 10% bonus, which is nice, but not game making. Bushido is nice when it enacts a miracle and saves your scout from a swarm of Barbarians (post-G&K, I had a scout survive on 1HP solely because of Bushido) or when you're making that last push to take out a city, but in the end, the Bushido bonus rarely comes into much consideration.

And the Zero is still a lousy unit because Fighters are lousy in single player. Fighters are decent on defense or for baiting out ant-air, but you'll likely never use them on the Domination path because a swarm of Bombers is just more effective. The Zero comes late, with lackluster bonuses, costs as many hammers as a Bomber to build outright, and the lack of an oil requirement isn't really enough to encourage you to build them.

I say these things as a Japan fan. I almost never play anyone else. I'm grooving on the additional fish-culture, and I am well aware that the Samurai is an amazing city-sieging machine. (Though the latest patch, removing the quick upgrade of Samurai to Musketmen, has ironically increased Japan's reliance on finding large iron deposits.) Japan is an okay Civ, and the one I want to play, but it is not the best Civ for pure domination. Thankfully, it no longer is trying to be.

Yes, but Japan is much stronger now than in vanilla.

Not true, I'm afraid. In Vanilla, Bushido was regularly viable because your units were so often almost dead. Kamikaze style attacks were rewarded in Vanilla (and Japanese units would often walk away from such attacks very much alive in any event). But post-G&K 100hp change, that's no longer the case. It makes much more sense to remove wounded units from the battlefield and heal them now, so Bushido rarely takes effect.

Additionally, in Vanilla the penalty for heavily injured units was 50%; G&K reduced that penalty to a maximum of 33%. These two rules changes were a heavy nerf for Japan.

Finally, the Zero became even less viable post G&K with the introduction of the Great War units. It's so late in the tech tree, you'll almost never get to the point where you can use it...if you even wanted to.

Japan was at the height of its power in Vanilla, when it was considered one of the best Civs in the game. Then the game evolved and Japan didn't evolve with it. Japan was a domination monster in Vanilla, but it is now a solid average Civ.

Japan's UA isn't great because it mostly helps melee units which suck and because you shouldn't be losing ranged units at all. Japan gets two military UUs in very different eras that it can't conquer the world with (compare with Keshik+khan, longbowman, impi, siege towers, horse archers).

Have you ever faced down a swarm of Samurai? A proper Samurai swarm can take down an open-terrain city in one turn. My world conquering usually hits its heightened pitch the minute I get Samurai online.
 
The UA helps a lot with bombers.

Which is irrelevant because Radar is a mid-late game tech and Japan has no advantages when it comes to getting to Radar in the first place. When people say Japan's UA is weak it's because it's circumstantial. Other UA's with the same goal in mind (domination) synergize with their civs better or are more effective for other reasons.

bcaiko said:
Have you ever faced down a swarm of Samurai? A proper Samurai swarm can take down an open-terrain city in one turn. My world conquering usually hits its heightened pitch the minute I get Samurai online.

Melee units suck before rifles, so... a swarm of samurai is literally no match for a swarm of knights (much less keshiks) or a swarm of xbows.
 
Which is irrelevant because Radar is a mid-late game tech and Japan has no advantages when it comes to getting to Radar in the first place.

Yeah, he meant air power in general. Great War Bombers come a lot earlier than Radar, and an air force is indisputably the king of late game warfare. He's correct that the Japanese air force is going to be a superior air force because of Bushido.


Melee units suck before rifles, so... a swarm of samurai is literally no match for a swarm of knights (much less keshiks) or a swarm of xbows.

No. Crossbows can't take a city, and Knights have penalties against cities. Neither are even as strong, numbers wise, as Samurai. And neither can start with the Seige promotion the minute you create them. Samurai are exceptional at taking cities (bushido complements this nicely) and fighting on open terrain.

I agree with you that the game favors ranged units, but melee units have their place. Don't write off an exceptional unit because it's not ranged.
 
Yeah, he meant air power in general. Great War Bombers come a lot earlier than Radar, and an air force is indisputably the king of late game warfare. He's correct that the Japanese air force is going to be a superior air force because of Bushido.

The Japanese air force is strong, but it's just about the only part of the civ that's strong. And it's not enough IMO.

No. Crossbows can't take a city, and Knights have penalties against cities. Neither are even as strong, numbers wise, as Samurai. And neither can start with the Seige promotion the minute you create them. Samurai are exceptional at taking cities (bushido complements this nicely) and fighting on open terrain.

I agree with you that the game favors ranged units, but melee units have their place. Don't write off an exceptional unit because it's not ranged.

? a typical pre-industrial invasion force consists of mostly ranged units with a few token melee units (usually cheap crap units like pikemen or muskets) to hit the city just to take it. ~2 samurai and 6 x-bows is not as good as 2 longswordsman and 6 cho-ko-nu or 2 longswordsman and 6 longbowman (and much worse than any number of keshiks).

Samurai aren't flat-on-their-face awful, it's just the other domination civs are leagues better than Japan in every way. Domination civs with UUs contemporary with samurai are all also much better.
 
It's considered a "weak" domination victory because melee units and fighters are suboptimal in this game, and that it's primary bonus offers no economical advantages, aside from the extra culture. It's UU's don't do enough to change the state of the game.

This is unlike the Kesiek Riders and production bonus you get from the huns, the bonus is fairly limited in it's application. You are only benfiiting if your stuff is wounded and while that enables some solid counter pushes, that effect is fairly minimal most of the time.

The solid culture bonus, and the ability to build fishing boats is pretty sweet certainly helps in small ways, but it isn't as useful as getting extra warriors, production out of the gate. Or Aztecs with their jungle warriors. It doesn't give them a strong early game pressence.

Though it's certainly made them better rounded in the current game
 
Have you ever faced down a swarm of Samurai? A proper Samurai swarm can take down an open-terrain city in one turn. My world conquering usually hits its heightened pitch the minute I get Samurai online.

How many Samurai do you bring and how many do you lose ? Have to be built with Heroic Epic or will a barracks do ?

Thinking about giving Japan another spin, but I'm typically in the top of the tech tree so my Samurais aren't the strongest unit on the playing field by the time I get to them. Willing to switch things up a bit to make a go of it, but not sure how many Samurai I'll need to take a couple of key cities.
 
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