Special Units

[stormbind]

The thing that bugs me about Civ3 are the Special Units. The game is much better without them.

First and most important. Special Units have never developed because of a countries name, they developed because of their geographical location. Gurkers come from India because it's a friggin jungle, not because it's called India.

Second, Civ3 Special Units aren't even historically accurate. Why should America get a better jet fighter when 1) Jets were invented in England, 2) American pilots admit they would have lost a war with the USSR because the F-15 is inferior to the SU-27. News flash: Just because the USA was ignorant of what happened outside it's borders doesn't mean nothing happened.

In the interest of completeness, Great Britain beat the **** out of Napoleon because British rifles were more accurate than French muskets. How about that for a Special Unit?!

Going back to geographical regions and India. When India has no ivory but still builds War Elephants, where are they supposed to have got the elephants from?

 

[Henry_X]

Going back to geographical regions and India. When India has no ivory but still builds War Elephants, where are they supposed to have got the elephants from?

that's a good one , definitly one for This thread.

 

[Aeson]

The American's got a 'better' fighter because fighters (better or not) are basically worthless.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by stormbind


Second, Civ3 Special Units aren't even historically accurate. Why should America get a better jet fighter when 1) Jets were invented in England, 2) American pilots admit they would have lost a war with the USSR because the F-15 is inferior to the SU-27. News flash: Just because the USA was ignorant of what happened outside it's borders doesn't mean nothing happened.

Oh really? Get me the source of that 'quote'

Well, supposedly, the MiG-29 was WAY superior to the F-16 - and our dear German MiG pilots got their asses handed to them in cookie jars because the plane was excellent - just not flyable to its full potential by one human

and the same hold truue for the flanker - to little automation, to much time to spend inside the coackpit. Also: how many of them did the SU have? How far was their range? man, a Carrier battel group would beat the **** out of 4 times the number of MiGs and Sus.

and jet fighters were 'invented' in Germany.



as for the UU: turn them off if you don#t like them

 

[stormbind]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
Well, supposedly, the MiG-29 was WAY superior to the F-16 - and our dear German MiG pilots got their asses handed to them in cookie jars because the plane was excellent - just not flyable to its full potential by one human

The exported MiG-29 in service with the Luftwaffe has consistently outperformed F-16 and F/A-18 in NATO excercises. Also, the exported version has 10% less power and a weaker radar - The Russians weren't stupid!

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
and the same hold truue for the flanker - to little automation, to much time to spend inside the coackpit. Also: how many of them did the SU have? How far was their range? man, a Carrier battel group would beat the **** out of 4 times the number of MiGs and Sus.

The current Russian frontline air superiority fighter is the SU-37. Simulations run by BAE Systems show the SU-37 would down current F-15 at a rate of 3 to 1. I do not know of any simulations or excersises comparing the F-15 and SU-27.

I can however state that the greatest weakness of F-15 is the radar which has a life expentency of under 15 hours and is difficult to repair.

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
...and jet fighters were 'invented' in Germany.

So what's your point? It certainly doesn't seem to strengthen any American claim.

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
as for the UU: turn them off if you don#t like them

Did I somewhere say that I hadn't turned them off?

 

[wilbill]

Originally posted by stormbind
Gurkers come from India because it's a friggin jungle, not because it's called India.

They were gurkhas , not "gurkers". And they're Nepalese, not Indian. They were incorporated into the Indian Army by the British. They came about in the Himalayas, not the jungle. Otherwise, your point is well taken.

 

[stormbind]

Thanks for the correction wilbill

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by stormbind


The exported MiG-29 in service with the Luftwaffe has consistently outperformed F-16 and F/A-18 in NATO excercises. Also, the exported version has 10% less power and a weaker radar - The Russians weren't stupid!

I hate to say that, but the MiGs did only well when missions were tailored to fit them. As they usually were. Even then, the kill ratio was 1:1. The short range of the MiGs DO NOIT ALLOW exercises where the western planes fly deceptive courses because this would waste tax dollars for nothing as the MiGs would have to return to base without ever seeing their 'targets'

It is like if you want to play ball with a 3 year old - would you take a full-size one that he cannot even hold in one hand?


And, btw, the MiG-29 was supposed to be the counterppart to the F-15, not the F-16 that is far less capable.....

The current Russian frontline air superiority fighter is the SU-37. Simulations run by BAE Systems show the SU-37 would down current F-15 at a rate of 3 to 1. I do not know of any simulations or excersises comparing the F-15 and SU-27.

see above again! Also, the SU-37 is about 20 years newer than the F-15 - compare it to the Eurofighter or better yet the F-22 swatting flies that don't even see you

I can however state that the greatest weakness of F-15 is the radar which has a life expentency of under 15 hours and is difficult to repair.

Have you seen maintainance states of Eastern European users of Russian planes? they are wonderfully easy to repair. in fact so much so that they only get repaired when really needed
What nice stuff that have came from western technology after 1990 that works well i admit.

So what's your point?

that you are wrong. Funny how someone who talks like he knows so much goes wrong like that......

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

one example to clarify a bit what stormbind is comparing here:

the Swiss Pikemen were the terror of the Knights. killed them to the dozen.

What stormind is doing is saying well, modern Armoured Cavalry is better than the Pikemen! WTH?

 

[stormbind]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
I hate to say that, but the MiGs did only well when missions were tailored to fit them. As they usually were.

And, btw, the MiG-29 was supposed to be the counterppart to the F-15, not the F-16 that is far less capable.....

The SU-37 is newer but I have no figures for the SU-27 versus F-15, that's why I used data from the SU-37.

The SU-27 and F-15 are air superiority fighters. The MiG 29 is a short range interceptor, which is more like an F-14 than than an F-15.

The F-22 and Typhoon should be compared to the SU-47, not the SU-37.

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
...that you are wrong. Funny how someone who talks like he knows so much goes wrong like that......

I was not wrong!

Frank Whittle invented the Jet Engine. He was English, born in England, raised in England, died in England, invented the engine in England, and it flew in England before WW2... how much more English can the jet possibly be?

I let your argument go because Germany was the first to deploy a jet fighter, but even that's negligible because the RAF had the Gloster Meteor at about the same time.

 

[stormbind]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
one example to clarify a bit what stormbind is comparing here:

the Swiss Pikemen were the terror of the Knights. killed them to the dozen.

What stormind is doing is saying well, modern Armoured Cavalry is better than the Pikemen! WTH?

What are you talking about?

I made no mention of knights or cavalry.

I was stating that the Special Units in the game are not historically accurate, and that Special Units are developed in specific geographical regions that have nothing to do with the name of the civilisation to which they bellong.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by stormbind

The MiG 29 is a short range interceptor, which is more like an F-14 than than an F-15.

the F-14 is a fleet defence fighter, build with especially emphasis on range and loitertime.

The F-22 and Typhoon should be compared to the SU-47, not the SU-37.

which will be in service in what? 2020?

I was not wrong!

Frank Whittle invented the Jet Engine. He was English, born in England, raised in England, died in England, invented the engine in England, and it flew in England before WW2... how much more English can the jet possibly be?

I let your argument go because Germany was the first to deploy a jet fighter, but even that's negligible because the RAF had the Gloster Meteor at about the same time.

truce on that one, if you see it that way Stevenson didn't invent the steamboat. You get what i mean and I see your point.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by stormbind


What are you talking about?

I made no mention of knights or cavalry.

I was using an example understandable for everyone that also mixes different 'design' generations, skewing the results.

 

[stormbind]

Ok, truce. So who did invent the steamboat?

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

I don't remember, but he never tried to sell it


even better is the guy who really invented the ship screw (propeller). he was from Vienna, and he had a little steamboat and tried the thing on the Donau (Danube), and the steam engine failed. So he didn't get a patent for the screw He died poor

 

[stormbind]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.


I was using an example understandable for everyone that also mixes different 'design' generations, skewing the results.

Well, no worries. I was not really interested in the generations of a unit type. I was more bothered by the totally unique troops like the War Elephant.

If countries with Ivory could make War Elephants instead of Horsemen... then that would be cool, and it would make some sense. If countries won many sea battles, and this unlocked the ability to build Man-O-War .... then that also makes a little sense.

But saying a civilisation can build some Special Unit because it's name is England or America is just absurd and damages playability

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

stormbind: I agree a more flexible system, based on resources, would make a lot more sense. Especially the elephants ARE a bad joke

 

[Civanator]

Well, the USAF rarely uses the F-15 anymore, so that was a wasted UU. Something like the F-22 or the Stealth Bomber, which only the US has knowledge of building and using, would be a better UU. Same with the Stealth Fighter, which can't be called a fighter. It is actually the F-117, and it is used for laser-precision bombing, which could send a bomb threw a open window without skimming the curtains.

 

[stormbind]

Well, I don't want another long winded discussion on something that is not well known inside the USA.... But, stealth doesn't work well against modern radar. Ok, it doesn't work at all.

Works OK against WW2-style radar though

The discussion was too long but not totally wasted. The F-15 and SU-27 were both new during the Cold War, and the SU-27 was better. But the USAF simply didn't know it existed and as a result, Civ3 is historically inaccurate.

If you want to talk about Stealth... The RAF and Luftwaffe have been able to fly below the radar band for several decades and this aproach has proven much more succesful. It was first achieved in the Blackburn Buckaneer but was perfected with the Panavia Tornado.

My point remains unchanged. Countries should be able to develop Special Units through resources and experience... not because of they have a specific name.

P.S. The F-15 will remain in service until around 2030. Many countries now have stealth. Look up Gotha Go 229 on Google and you will see something thought of as American was actually imported.

 

[CrackedCrystal]

Originally posted by stormbind
Ok, truce. So who did invent the steamboat?

Ah, man. a truce? And it was just getting interesting

Wether a specific plane is better than an American I don't think is what the game creators were shooting for. I think it is just overall, America has the strongest Air Force. Thus, the game designers gave the Americans a better plane.