*Spoiler2* Gotm22-Vikings - End of Medieval Age + Full World Map

[Qitai]

rabies> The irrigation is because the terrian contains lots of mountain, forest and hills. I need to balance the food. to use all tiles. If it is all grassland or floodplains, you will see a lot of mines. When I finish the mountains mining, I will then chop the forest and re-work the normal grassland to mine to prepare for the GA.

Offa> If you notice, my army in 410BC is not impressive yet, but builds up very quickly after that. The idea is you either have just enough troop for defense and concentrate on development first. And then when you are ready, full blast military. tactic would have to change for multiplayer I believe with a higher contend of military, since human player will not standby and watch you develop. 410BC is the turning point where I did the palace jump and finish almost all core land development which means soon after, I let the cities grow beyond 6 and then add the worker back.

And hey, playing GOTM is about learning and sharpening your skills. For example, the demand for city and palace jump wasn't really planned this time!! But it will become part of my strat next time. And yes, I do micromanaged an awful lot which is why I go around everywhere asking for the food/shield flow over to next production changes, just so I do not need to do it anymore. Check my F1 screenprint, did you notice my shield production is either 15 or 30, no in-betweens.

Txurce> Granaries depends on needs. My thinking is that a granary doubles your food production. So, the value of granary is +2 if you have no food bonus and +5 if you have food bonus to get 5 excess food. From that view, non-bonus town producing a settler or a granary is almost the same since a settler gives +2 food as well (for a new city) and cost 40 food, 30 shield whereas granary cost 60 shield and 1 gpt. However, when there is extra shield production and the food production cannot catch with the shield production or reduces the pop too fast if you produce settler, then building a granary will allow the pop to grow. So, it makes alot of sense to build granaries even on normal food production cities. The reason I had only 4 (5 actually since I forgot to count the one in the old capital which I abandon in 410BC) is that by this time I had enough workers to work the land and settlers to fill up new spots. And (1) For core cities without granary, the defense priority overrides the granary priority; (2) The outer cities simply do not produce enough shield due to corruption to make granary reasonable.

As for space or diplomatic victory, this is where I am not sure if this method is still correct. And of course, being scientific will unbalance those figures making libaries worthwhile again. One of the thing about those victory condition is that it is really all about how fast you can reach the 4-turn research rate and excess research capability wouldn't help. So, letting the towns to grow beyond 6 earlier, add a library and hope for a GL for the palace shift maybe a better option since it is possible to get 4 turn research in middle age with republic even without a second core. A second core is definately a must eventually, so it is a matter of timing. I keep the town size to 6 to churn out workers and wait for my palace jump. Anyway, Sir Pleb or all the other great players who won the last medal series would be better players to ask. They are more all-rounded than me. And to tell you the truth, I have not won by space race before in civ3

So far, all my victories are 100K, conquest and domination. I just want to get my conquest medal this time since Sir Pleb beat me to that in GOTM20 (And I lose gladly to such a great player). I will probably start trying for other victory type since conquest/domination is getting a bit old for me. But GOTM23, arab with the ansar warrior is very tempting - was thinking if BC victory is possible with the right conditions

 

[Qitai]

And ohh.. I just remembered. One of the other main reason for only 5 granaries is that I am in Monarchy by 975BC and with that, value of granary is much lower due to food production outpace shield production.

 

[SirPleb]

Originally posted by Qitai
They are more all-rounded than me.

You are very gracious Qitai! I think that when you pursue the other victory conditions we will all be finding it difficult to keep up with you

 

[Qitai]

Well, it is the truth. I did not even know what the required tech are for a space victory

 

[gozpel]

Originally posted by Qitai
Well, it is the truth. I did not even know what the required tech are for a space victory

Just pick the rabbit (Tech > Space Flight - Small wonder > Apollo Program) from your wizard's hat and the rest is easy

SirPleb and you others, I should have been quiet, shouldn't I?

Now we will watch a space launch BC...

 

[Txurce]

SirPleb (and all the other elite who are currently MIA): there is a basic tech-rate question which I have been trying to answer. Qitai clearly has been a great help, and now I'll ask to take up your time.

How do you best maximize research once out of the QSC?

This question is a natural outgrowth of the success of the QSC concept, which has brought the early gameplay of a lot of players within range of the elite. The QSC focus on enhanced expansion, combined with smart research choices and tech-trading, seems to leave many players within range of the elite by the end of the ancient era. However, the elite then dramatically pull away at the start of the Middle Ages. To a large degree, this must be due to what elite players do - in addition to trading smartly - in the late ancient era, the period following the QSC.

There seem to be two basic approaches: expand moderately and build libraries and markets right away (especially if scientific); or focus on expansion, and let sheer size (and improved tiles) generate the necessary beakers. The evidence strongly indicates that military victories are best won with the latter approach. If going for a space or diplomatic victory, institutes of higher learning eventually will be required - but is the best general approach to first expand as quickly as possible to two maxed-out cores, and then use your likely excess of gold to rush all those buildings?

 

[SirPleb]

Originally posted by Txurce
How do you best maximize research once out of the QSC?

This question is a natural outgrowth of the success of the QSC concept, which has brought the early gameplay of a lot of players within range of the elite. The QSC focus on enhanced expansion, combined with smart research choices and tech-trading, seems to leave many players within range of the elite by the end of the ancient era. However, the elite then dramatically pull away at the start of the Middle Ages. To a large degree, this must be due to what elite players do - in addition to trading smartly - in the late ancient era, the period following the QSC.

There seem to be two basic approaches: expand moderately and build libraries and markets right away (especially if scientific); or focus on expansion, and let sheer size (and improved tiles) generate the necessary beakers. The evidence strongly indicates that military victories are best won with the latter approach. If going for a space or diplomatic victory, institutes of higher learning eventually will be required - but is the best general approach to first expand as quickly as possible to two maxed-out cores, and then use your likely excess of gold to rush all those buildings?

It is difficult to address this with a general answer. I think there are a few things involved here, I'll try to address the ones I can, with some digression from the main thing you are asking about

First point, I think the QSC results should be viewed carefully in this context. I think there's no doubt that working on a better QSC score will improve most people's games. But I also think a lot can happen during the QSC period which is difficult to put a numeric value on. Two QSC submissions which have roughly the same score can be quite different in the actual strength of the positions. These differences in strength are hard to quantify because there are many possible factors, and they depend on the map, the Civ, and the player's long term goals. Some examples:

• Geographical development. E.g. if some progress has been made toward establishing a second productive region that's valuable. If particular wars are expected then positioning for them (e.g. roads prepared in that direction) is valuable. Progress toward claiming desired resources (usually horses and/or iron, depends on Civ and long term intentions) is good. Effective trade-offs in city placement (e.g. good use of available fresh water) matters.
• Preparation for a more productive government and a larger Civ. E.g. progress toward claiming luxuries and preparations to handle unhappiness (which depend on the anticipated government.)
• Cultural development. Having at least as much culture as your nearest rivals (or setting up so that you can catch up to that point easily in future) can be useful at this point, it allows the option of capturing cities instead of razing them later on.
• Preparation for war. If a war of expansion is intended I'd say there's a lot less value in having 20 Spearmen at this point than in having 13 Swordsmen. This also ties to geography - if a war on mostly flat land is intended soon I see less value in having Swordsmen than Horsemen, and v.v. if the war will occur mostly in mountainous areas.
• A specific example of a small detail (I think there are many factors like this and they all can add a bit): In GOTM18 as Celts, a war-mongering start might be considered a slightly better position if some towns with Barracks are not connected by road to the rest of the empire - those towns can build warriors for upgrading.
• Another specific example: In some games one's QSC position might be stronger by not having learned Horseback Riding - that could allow for building more Chariots and upgrading them later.

I think the list could go on for a long time. In one important and useful way the QSC does allow for some of these differences, in Cracker's post-mortem analysis. Each month he groups the QSC submissions according to factors which seem to result in especially important groupings for that particular game, and then also comments on some specific games which have special characteristics. I think this grouping and commentary can be very useful in better understanding the relative strengths and weaknesses of various positions at the end of the QSC period.

I think that improving QSC score can be a very useful initial goal for players. The QSC can especially be used in two ways: to identify weaknesses to be worked on, and to compare overall styles and approaches in the post-mortem. But once a player is getting a good QSC score I think it is time to stop treating that score as a goal with direct importance. At that point the player won't lose the skills learned so far, will probably continue to do well in QSC score, and it is time to start focusing on longer term issues and plans.

Regarding the particular question of scientific research after the QSC period, that's another tough one (It seems I can't give a direct and simple answer today ) The following are the factors I can think of.

One which is beyond the player's control after the game is started is the class being played. I think it will often be a difference that the AIs will research faster in Predator. Stronger AIs will go at a faster pace, seems unavoidable. So Predator players may end up following a different approach, getting more of their early tech from trade and pointy sticks than from direct research.

The desired tech pace is a first consideration I think. Sometimes I don't want maximum speed tech. I might even want to deliberately slow it down. Or I might want just a certain pace, e.g. when going for 20K it seems best to go just fast enough to make new wonders constantly available.

So in some games Great Library (gained by building it or taking it) can be a good way to go. If the other Civs are already setting roughly the pace you want this can work very well. You can use the gold saved by doing zero research to build up everything else in preparation for the time you will once again want to research.

I'd rate a second productive region as one of the most important single factors in research capacity. Once it is built up it can roughly double your gpt.

The other highest priority for me is government. If you want a high research capacity, get to Republic asap. Set everything else up to support happiness in Republic, going for luxuries where possible.

Regarding expansion vs. building infrastructure such as libraries in existing holdings, I don't think there's a hard and fast rule. I'd say expansion does come first when it is "easy". I.e. if there is good land available, and cities built there won't be totally corrupt, fill in that land as the first priority. But when expansion is harder (e.g. requiring warfare) there won't be a clear overall rule, it will depend on the situation.

Minimize unhappiness. Having to use the luxury slider while trying for maximum research is of course undesirable.

When researching, go for either a tech you can really use to advantage (e.g. heading for Military Tradition if setting up for fast conquest) or go for the techs the AIs are least likely to research. (Do both of these things at once if possible.) Alexman's thread What will the AI research next? and Ambiorix's spreadsheet in that thread can be a great help in working this out.

Maximize income. All tiles worked by citizens should have roads. Harbors in low corruption coastal cities can be worthwhile. Whenever you can do so without disadvantage, trade with the AIs for their gold.

Minimize expenses. I don't go nuts on this but it is important to not spend gold unnecessarily. This is one of the reasons I almost never build a Colosseum or a Cathedral. They cost gpt to maintain. If you have obsolete military units which you'll likely never use for anything, disband them. If you capture enemy cities, disband any improvements which will never do you any good. (E.g. banks in corrupt cities.) And this is another reason to build towns on fresh water when possible - when you don't need an aqueduct you save on maintenance as well as on the construction.

Reduce corruption. Courthouses in partially productive cities are a very good investment.

Micromanage citizens. If a high gold producing tile can be worked by a citizen from either of two cities, and there's a difference in the corruption level between the cities, work the tile from the city with less corruption. If a city is producing Horsemen and produces 12 shields/turn, see if citizens can be reassigned so that you get two less shields per turn in the city but get more gold and/or food as a result. If a city has 8 citizens, 3 of which are happy, one content, and four unhappy, don't assign one citizen as an entertainer, assign it as a taxman or scientist - you don't need the entertainer to keep this city happy so you might as well gain income from the necessary specialist.

 

[Txurce]

SirPleb: wow! I'm sure a lot of players besides me will appreciate the time you put into this research smorgasbord.

My original point about the QSC was that it has improved the starts of a lot of players, so that there isn't such a big difference in performance between the elite and the next couple of tiers. You've done a very thorough job of highlighting the next step in startig play, outlining how good QSC players can further improve their early-game performances - including a lessened focus on score. Your thoughts on geographical development have been particularly useful to me, and any interested players who haven't reviewed your GOTM18 start should do so.

Given that it's hard to imagine a map where one could expand into two full cores without war, I think you answered my main question, in that you recommend an approach less rigid than 1) expand and 2) develop.

You made three points that are particularly valuable to me. I have been thinking recently about viewing Predator as another way to speed research, if I can handle the price. A comment by DaveMcW about temples led me to play GOTM22 without a single one, and you've extended the point to cover colosseums and cathedrals - luxuries are the more efficient way to go. Finally, you amplify Qitai's micromanaging of shields to avoid waste, pointing out that the non-shield producing workers can possibly bring in more gold.

The Great Library gambit is interesting. I would think that it would be an aid toward a fast pace on Emperor and Deity, but the occasional elite player outpaces it on emperor, and there's no assurance of getting it on deity. On monarch and below, I think a faster pace could be maintained without it. This seems to make the GL a good bet if going for a military win (where a fast tech pace isn't critical) on monarch and emperor levels.