Stalker0 Returns! What have I been up to?

Stalker0

Baller Magnus
Joined
Dec 31, 2005
Messages
11,107
After a long hiatus awaiting the 4UC integration, but with the 5.0 beta shortly on the way I am ready to make my grand return! (and there was much rejoicing.....yay)

On the forum someone asked me what other games and things I had been playing and was curious if that gave me any new thoughts or insights into VP for the future. hehe after my Discordfu failed I cannot find that original conversation and person who asked me...but a few months later I'm finally giving you the write up you requested.

And so, here are some of the things I've been up to.


Creating a Boardgame - Unclaimed Valley
I've been a hobbist boardgame creator for a while, with a number of attempted projects. But this is the one that has some real traction, I am working with a design team and we are in full scale playtesting, hoping to go into kickstarter next year (ideally once the US tarrifs calm down...they are really killing areas of the boardgame industry).

If you are interested in checking it out, the Discord is here: https://discord.gg/rH256b33xq


Insights into VP
One thing boardgame design really teaches you is the old quote: "A designer knows he has achieved perfection, not when they have anything left to add...but when they have nothing left to take away". Because a human has to manage all elements of a boardgame, you are always limited in your design space on what you can get away with. Everything is a compromise between more functionality vs slowing down or creating too much complexity that drives away players.

It once again reminds me of the elegance of emergent complexity. The best products know what they are here to do and just do them well, they are simple, but that simplicity can lead to complex function that can wow and impress. Its easy to always add add add....it takes real vision and discipline to cut.

I think that is a lesson worth reiterating in our VP discussions. Its always tempting to bolt on another subsystem, add another group of buildings, etc. Having the discipline to go "is this REALLY improving the game" is essential to keep VP the amazing game we have come to love.


Galactic Civilization 4

I have always been a sucker for space games, and space 4x games....and so the GC games are a guilty pleasure of mine.

Insights into VP
As much as a like the GC4 space focus, and there are certain aspects of these games that are just so damn enjoyable....inevitably I come back to the realization...this is not actually a good game imo. I have to relearn this lesson every so often, but every time I remember why I don't think the game is actually that good.

GC4 suffers the opposite of what I mentioned above. It is bloated. There are tons of techs and tons of policies and tons of features, tons of knobs that can impact combat. Except...most of those elements are hot garbage. And many of the combat knobs, they are so opaque and hard to understand that even the devs on their forums don't often know how they work (I can't tell you how many times I have done combat simulations with people on the forum to actually figure out basic combat mechanics). And once you do figure out those mechanics...a lot of them don't actually do all that much. In fact, due to things like rounding and the like, some of those are 100% complete garbage.

And then there are the bugs. There are bugs from that game's beta that are still in the game. They keep moving forward with new features and DLCs....but so many basic things are still buggy.


It highlights one of the Civ series strengths....direct simple feedback. The vast majority of things in Civ and VP, you do a thing, you immediately see how that thing works. Its not an invisible actor behind the scenes, you get a yield, you can spend that yields on X....X does a thing you can see on the board. However, if we look at the happiness system for example....taht's an area where we have treaded too far into the opaque territory imo. That system is a beast for players to figure out, and even now you can build a "happiness" building, but due to the arcane mechanics of the system...your unhappiness doesn't actually change. When I look at subsystems in VP where I seriously wonder if we should have just stuck with vanilla....happiness is at the top of the list. Yes there are definately things to tweak about teh vanilla happiness system (it is way too penalizing to wide as an example), that system is simple and direct. You can figure out very easily why your unhappiness goes up. You build a happy building, you know exactly how much impact it will have.

Mechabellum

This is a tactical wargame where each round you get money to build new warmachines versus an opponent that can do the same. then all of your machines go on auto play to kill the other side. Its a damn fine game, I highly recommend it for people looking for a quick game to play.

Its also damn fast, you can often play a full game against an opoonent (with full automatching) in 20 minutes.

Insight into VP
This again goes into that notion of direct feedback I mentioned. You play out a round and literally see how your warmachines do, and then next turn you can try and adjust. Your decisions are played out in real time. AND....you can watch the replay of a game, take control, and change the decisions to see how it would have gone differently.

Again, that crisp clean gameplay is a hallmark that should always be in the mind's eye when changing VP.


Sins of a Solar Empire 2

A RTS Space 4x game (so again, I have to play it).

So again as a point of comparison, I think what Mechabellum does so well Sins struggles with. Sins 2 is a damn fine and fun game, but it staddled itself too much in the middle. Its single player is fine, but there are very limited scenarios and its AI is fine enough but once you get the hang of it pretty easy to beat. Its multiplayer is actually EXTREMELY fun....like I love MP on that game. But...the game has never supported MP well. It has no automatching, its lobby functions are anemic, you can literally spend 30 min just sitting in a room waiting for people to gather (and then 10 min for someone to inevitably have to go to the bathroom)...and then you might play a 2-3 hour game, and its like you can take breaks. That game is a heavy time commitment, and while the epic scope is part of its appeal....it doesn't fit the modern market. People want games that go faster not slower. I played SINS2 and then shifted to mechabellum, because for every SINS2 game I could get in 8 Mechabellum ones if not more sometimes.

The lesson for VP is....to always remember the audience. I think this is also important when we consider MP. Is this a SP game, is it an MP game? If we do increase MP support, it should not be at the expense of SP. Again we don't want to hit that terribly middle where neither side is fully satisfied and the experience becomes worse for everyone.

Endless Legend 2
Its in early access right now, but this is a very promising 4x game. One thing this studio does well is connect to its community. When Civ7 had a lot of its negative feedback, it tooks weeks for good responses, and often months for fixes. Literally 1 week after early access started, the studio had collected feedback assessments, highlighted several areas to address (UI being a big one) and already put out drafts of some UI changes for the community to consider. That connection to their customers is a notable strength of theirs.

Gameplay wise, one thing that is cool about the game is the "tidefall". A lot of 4x games struggle to keep the exploration game going past the early phase. Civ solved this a long time ago with the Age of Sail standard continent maps. You explore your main area, midway in the game you get full sail ships, and suddenly its a whole new world to explore and discover.

In EL2, its a water world, but the seas are draining. So every so often (a random numbers of turns in a range of turns), the seas will fall, revealing new land to explore and colonize. Its a very sharp mechanic, and its great to see new 4x games finding clever ways to tackle some of the age old problems of the 4x genre.

Hollow Knight / Silksong

Not much to say except....play these games. Fun, exciting, just clean sharp game design. And so challenging as well. These games have sold like gangbusters....and they have earned every bit of that success.



So there you go, maybe those will give you a few new game ideas to look at. Otherwise, I am prepared for some new exciting VP action!
 
Your experience with GC4 is the exact same that I have. I really want the game to be good and it has some good ideas but it always disappoints and frustrates in the end.
 
Its in early access right now, but this is a very promising 4x game. One thing this studio does well is connect to its community. When Civ7 had a lot of its negative feedback, it tooks weeks for good responses, and often months for fixes. Literally 1 week after early access started, the studio had collected feedback assessments, highlighted several areas to address (UI being a big one) and already put out drafts of some UI changes for the community to consider. That connection to their customers is a notable strength of theirs.
Yes, the creators of Endless Legend 2 have been amazing in their responsiveness. They are writing the playbook in how to maintain a loyal and involved customer base. ;)
 
However, if we look at the happiness system for example....taht's an area where we have treaded too far into the opaque territory imo. That system is a beast for players to figure out, and even now you can build a "happiness" building, but due to the arcane mechanics of the system...your unhappiness doesn't actually change. When I look at subsystems in VP where I seriously wonder if we should have just stuck with vanilla....happiness is at the top of the list.

YES!
The elegant happiness system the mod had ~10 years ago is what originally got me excited about it. I haven't touched vanilla since.
That system had its flaws, sure, but at its core it was elegant and rooted in logic.
It hasn't been either of those things for a long long time.
I understand the rationale for many of the changes bolted onto it over the years.
But it's become a monstrosity that has no basis in anything logical anymore, and for some portions of the game it might as well not even exist at all. (in the ancient era you're basically always unhappy everywhere no matter what, bar the capital).
The wealthiest city on the planet can still be poor 'cause you have n other cities??? Sure, that makes sense! Let me just "lock growth" forever, and my citizens who aren't allowed to have families now will magically grow happier over time.
 
"Avoid Growth" is only there because AI still needed that. IMO it should be removed if AI doesn't need it anymore.

The needs system seems to just work. There are quirks like poverty leading to everyone working merchants despite not really needing gold, but there should be enough knobs to balance the system.
 
To add on: Endless legends 1 is extremely interesting. It's got a lot of quirks that turned me off at first, but also some extremely interesting design choices.

In civ in general and VP especially, while you need to specialize, you can't too much. If you focus on a science victory, you can't totally neglect military/culture/diplomacy. You kind of need to be a jack of all trades, master of one.

In Endless legend, you really need to specialize. You need to research 9 techs to reach the next tech level, and each level has like 15 techs. Some techs are no-brainers, but sometimes you literally just don't research how to diplomacy at all all game. You can't TOTALLY neglect military or science, but you really need to go all-in on your VC.

I wouldn't call that better or worse than VP, just a different design choice.

The happiness system is also very interesting to me. You get a base - unhappiness for every city, and then some - unhappiness for each expansion you build to each city until a certain point, where they actually start adding happiness. This makes happiness easy to manage with just a few cities, and slow you down in expanding. However more importantly: Happiness has benefits. Like you still have problems when unhappy, but above a certain level you get bonuses to production and food gen in cities that are happy, and bonuses to gold and science gen empire-wide when your empire's overhall happiness gets high enough.

Some comments have mentioned that the happiness system is hard for new players to learn and overly complex. I know it's hard for new players to learn already, so I don't think we necessarily need to add more to it, but the concept is interesting regardless.

The combat of that game is much more complex for no benefit. I love VP's elegant simple to learn yet hard to master combat. VP also feels like a game where logistics matter a lot. Where you fight matters as much or more than how you fight. (As anyone getting bogged down in hilly forest hell for 20 turns in a war can testify.)
 
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