Starting Cultures need rebalancing.

[PSG]

The Phoenicians are just plain awful even with ample coastline and luxuries. Manufacturing is clearly king, but a food civ can compete.. Phoenicia just lays there like a slug having nothing for production or influence to be able to expand. Have to research writing for gold bonuses to kick in and it's the end of the first age about then. Need something like half cost to build their harbor district and add a stability and production and or influence bonus to it.

 

[Siptah]

Phoenicians aren't super strong, but ok when there is a lot of coast. Still much better than Hittites or Olmecs anyway in my opinion. The first problem is the weak unit that *can* sometimes really shine (depending on the map) but is otherwise nothing to write home about. And the second problem is that the haven needs to be researched first. On the other hand, the haven can be built with influence, and it allows to build a harbor and a haven in a single territory, which are two strong points. A bit of fine tuning is always welcome, but I don't think they need a redesign. Maybe a slight buff to the unit, an additional +1 on the LT, and a farmer slot for the haven could already be enough.

 

[fortydayweekend]

Phoenicians are balanced by being in Neolithic for 30 turns and having 50 scouts and 500 influence when you flip. Who needs an ED?

 

[Taefin]

Even playing skip 5 turns and advancing to ancient ASAP, I have had some of my strongest starts with Phoenicia > Carthage. One city, influence buy 6-7 havens, then cothons before adding everything to cities. You get so much gold and then production that you can use both to expand rapidly. Also having the gold to have a huge classical army (and enough production to get 1- or 2- turn elephants is plenty). I’ve never taken one of these games past early modern because they are already decided. It helps that getting early gold is basically 6 era stars I wouldn’t get otherwise, so I stay fame competitive with AI as I build up to conquer them.

Edit: although making the bireme a naval transport would be awesome!

 

[fortydayweekend]

Even playing skip 5 turns and advancing to ancient ASAP, I have had some of my strongest starts with Phoenicia > Carthage. One city, influence buy 6-7 havens, then cothons before adding everything to cities. You get so much gold and then production that you can use both to expand rapidly. Also having the gold to have a huge classical army (and enough production to get 1- or 2- turn elephants is plenty). I’ve never taken one of these games past early modern because they are already decided. It helps that getting early gold is basically 6 era stars I wouldn’t get otherwise, so I stay fame competitive with AI as I build up to conquer them.

Edit: although making the bireme a naval transport would be awesome!

Yeah, money economy is great and Phoenicia/Carthage is a good combo to get started by stacking 33% more money/trader and 25% less buyout cost. Rush buying lets you speed development where it's most useful, and lets you upgrade to expensive units for quick timing attacks. With the right coastline Havens and especially Cothons can be great.

However... on most maps even vanilla industry is probably a better start, and Nubia/Carthage is just straight up better if there are any resources at all, if you have the option.

The unit can cross oceans I think so could be useful to get early trading partners on a watery map.

It's all a bit academic anyway as it's not difficult to win on HK with say Phoenicia/Goths/Norse/Edo/Russia/America, or without building any EQs or EUs.

 

[Taefin]

I’ll throw my hat in for the Hittites too. The Gigir is just so strong if you can get them up fast enough, even if their ability is largely outclassed by the Mycenaeans (although I think a single +25xp building gives you +2 strength whereas it wouldn’t be enough to give Myc. +2).

I really cannot imagine one could beat a Hittite army in the field with other Ancient units, since suppression effectively means your army is hitting at +5, and/or you can take a few units out of the battle each round. No one is going to have fun attacking a Gigir uphill while suppressed.

Olmecs, I can support them seeing some rework.

 

[NombreyApellido]

fishing being a second level tech is part of the problem and doesn't make much sense being a first level one either considering how hunting and farming are depicted

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The 'Balance' to really strong early units like the Gigir (or Zhou's Zanche, which is not bad either) is that they require 2 different Resources early in the game, when having both Horses and Copper available in your 'core' territories can be extremely problematic: I have managed it about 4 - 5 times out of several dozen starts, which is why I rarely ever pick Hittites, and in fighting an AI's Hittites I have never yet had to face Gigir.
On the other hand, the Hittite's +1 Combat Strength Legacy trait can be more than annoying when you are facing an entire army of units with it on good terrain, but without the (situational) Gigir they really have nothing else going for them except some fortified Outposts (Awari) which are pretty marginal if you don't have a unit or two around to support them.

You have to build their Emblematic Quartere, but the Olmecs with their Heads get two of the critical 'currencies' in the early game: Food and Influence. Harappans get more Food, but the Olmecs can expand faster, all else being equal, because they'll have the Influence to slap down Outposts faster, and attach them or Upgrade them to Cities faster. Since the Olmec Heads gives Influence for an adjacent Farmers Quarter, AND intrinsic Influence, and they get Influence per Territory, they can easily pull in twice the Influence/turn of any other Ancient Faction. That's not to be sneezed at.

In general I think Ranged Units (like the Olmec Javelin-Thrower) need a hard look, because right now the Line of Sight, Indirect Fire rules make little sense and result in some very peculiar 'Upgrades' for some of them. I know there has been some discussion of this over at the G2G forums, we'll see what comes out of it . . .

 

[Victoria]

I played Phoenicia up to civ level. Grab a couple of Biremes then move on era’s, it is the Biremes that allow you to get to that third empty continent way before the opposition. Either get a free people to convert or find a path over with some extra movement for a unit. That’s the hard part.
It’s a different game and does not compete with builder civ exploits but I tried it because I got bored of repeating strategies. Works fine, just look for the extra movement choices rather than extra strength.
Egypt needs rebalancing? No, everything needs rebalancing. Too many ways to go zoom.
Dem luxuries.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Phoenicia could largely be fixed by letting its EQ be built from the beginning of the game (no tech requirement).

 

[PSG]

I played Phoenicia up to civ level. Grab a couple of Biremes then move on era’s, it is the Biremes that allow you to get to that third empty continent way before the opposition. Either get a free people to convert or find a path over with some extra movement for a unit. That’s the hard part.
It’s a different game and does not compete with builder civ exploits but I tried it because I got bored of repeating strategies. Works fine, just look for the extra movement choices rather than extra strength.
Egypt needs rebalancing? No, everything needs rebalancing. Too many ways to go zoom.
Dem luxuries.

Egypt is by far the strongest starting civ, but I found a replacement to the Khmer last night by going Egypt-Goth-Teutons which just makes the Angkor Wat-Machu Pichu faith food explosion more insane than it already was. My capital was 125 pop at turn 355/600 when the game ended from finishing tech.

 

[Taefin]

What are folks finding most powerful about Egypt? Is it the yield on the EQ, land raiser (how much early gold/science is there)?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

What are folks finding most powerful about Egypt? Is it the yield on the EQ, land raiser (how much early gold/science is there)?

My thought is
1. the EQ (inf+production), the LT (+Production) making it easy to get going
2. Inf ffrom the EQ helping to expand
3. an Amazing EU that can take out classical civs if you mass it and screen (range ftw)

 

[Siptah]

Add to that an LT that is -10% instead of a flat number, so it stays relevant throughout all eras.

 

[Victoria]

Add to that an LT that is -10% instead of a flat number, so it stays relevant throughout all eras.

It is this @Taefin as much as anything else but it is really the combination including that EU

 

[Taefin]

I’ve certainly had some good games as Egyptians. I personally was more drawn to their ability to operate in Ancient longer, switching to land raiser when they finish enough ancient techs and laying down strong infrastructure in a few new/captured cities before moving onto classical. The games this have worked have put me into a fame lead by the end of classical.

I do think their LT is not quite as proportionate throughout the game as it first appears. 10% district cost is essentially a few (2-3?) free districts that don’t count toward your district cost, which grows geometrically/exponentially. So you have a few extra districts in each city, which gives a flat bonus. However this can be used to get ahead of the district production cost curve by investing hard in production at first, which is very strong. Other cultures can do this, but not quite as well. Mycenaeans actually set up well as their EQ is the best industry exploitation until Khmer, not having to be adjacent (also 1.5 free districts of stability each before commons quarters).

Because of this, I wonder if steepening the district cost curve and making stability more difficult wouldn’t be the best balance against production cultures, so that they become better at building units/buildings, but cannot get into this runaway space where they can just tile entire regions with districts.

 

[fortydayweekend]

Regardless of who you pick as starting culture, you're almost always going to build 2-3 Makers Quarters very early in your capital, and 1-2 in your second city, before you build anything else (other than possibly extractors for some resources). Having an EQ that means you don't have to deviate from that build order is hugely powerful, so Egypt and to a lesser extent Nubia are very powerful.

 

[Cakeathon]

What are folks finding most powerful about Egypt? Is it the yield on the EQ, land raiser (how much early gold/science is there)?

I think the key here is just the first 10-20 turns of ancient which sets the pace for the whole game. Basically, egypt can just jump way ahead of everybody else in the production feedback loop that ultimately is what will translate into every other yield down the road. Faster districts, faster buildings, faster army, faster just everything, you get to run while everybody else is still crawling with their crap production.

And the EU is just ridiculous. 24 strength ancient era unit with 6 movement 3 range and can move after attacking.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

As for the EU, I think part of the fix should be all those mounted archers EUs should not be able to fire outside of LOS (like Crossbowmen). They can still cycle to and from the frontline, and those seem to be the best EUs.

 

[Taefin]

As for the EU, I think part of the fix should be all those mounted archers EUs should not be able to fire outside of LOS (like Crossbowmen). They can still cycle to and from the frontline, and those seem to be the best EUs.

Maybe 2 range with LoS. Moving into ZoC stops you from moving after attack, so then you’d have to create opportunities to move everyone through a couple tiles to get off a shot.

I’d rather just see the strength drop to 19 like the other ranged EU. It’s the same weapon after all.