Stealth beeline

[ggmoyang]

I started a game with Aztecs, small pangaea map with normal speed, deity level.
I decided to get HG and beelined Math, but at turn 44 someone builds it.

I found out I'm isolated and decided to beeline stealth, and to do that I built Hagia Sophia, getting GE to rush PT.
I also signed 3 RAs to compensate early loss and get Education fast.

But the PT got built by Babylons before my RAs come...
I was frustrated but continued to play.
Didn't build wonders since I was hammer starved, just rushed Brandenburg Gate with GE.

And I got Stealth at turn 204... not so late.

I was amazed.
I got oils and aluminiums form CS and conquering was easy. with Stealth bombers starting with 60exp and Military tradition.

Looks like Stealth beeline is the way when you are isolated.

 

[Cheeseisgood]

Interesting. Can you further explain your stealth beeline? I mean it sounds like an awful long way to "Beeline" from the start, surely you can't even miss that many techs? Nicely done on getting it so early, I'm just interested in how!

 

[ggmoyang]

1. beeline Mathematics and HG -> failed.
2. Writing -> Philosophy for NC. Calender -> Trapping for luxuries.
3. Theology and start building HS. signed 3 RAs. bought monastery. (since I got 2 incenses there)
4. Civil service then Sailing -> Optics and some old techs to set median value for RA high. got GE from HS. finished Tradition.
5. got Education and Compass with RA boost. bought University. Assigned 2 Scientist and built Oxford
6. free tech Astronomy. got Rationalism. signed RA when I got money.
7. teched to Chivalry and Machinery, now renaissance tech is median value.
8. Acoustics for fast policies, Banking -> Printing press -> Navigation -> Economics, with help of RAs of course. kept signing RAs.
9. used a GS, bulbed Scientific theory. bought Public school and assigned a scientist.
10. teched Military science. rushed Brandenburg Gate with GE. got 3rd policy of Rationalism.
11. Fertilizer -> Archaeology. Median value is industrial tech now. opened Honor.
12. Steam power -> Biology. used Scientific revolution, free tech Electricity and Radio. now median value is 4100. no Aluminium here, ally an CS.
13. teched to Combustion then Flight, and bulbed Radar/Laser/Stealth. with 3GSs

The key is signing many RAs and keeping high median value for RAs. and keeping GS for bulb later.

 

[RealHuhn]

Stealth bombers @ turn 204 with one city and only 212 beakers per turn.

How to do this? Sign research agreements and press next turn 204 times.
This game is broken beyond believe. Seriously.

 

[ggmoyang]

Stealth bombers @ turn 204 with one city and only 212 beakers per turn.

How to do this? Sign research agreements and press next turn 204 times.
This game is broken beyond believe. Seriously.

Maybe they'll add some tech requisites to stealth, like they did to Dynamites and Education and etc

 

[RealHuhn]

Maybe they'll add some tech requisites to stealth, like they did to Dynamites and Education and etc

That wouldn't change anything. It doesn't matter which late game unit you use. Anything works as long as you get them fast enough.
And that's not a problem at all because after renaissance you don't have to research a single tech by yourself.

Where's the point in playing this? It's sad.

 

[anandus]

That wouldn't change anything. It doesn't matter which late game unit you use. Anything works as long as you get them fast enough.
And that's not a problem at all because after renaissance you don't have to research a single tech by yourself.

Where's the point in playing this?

Well, of course you don't have to sign RA's

I find it a bit exploity to sell luxuries, open borders, etc and to sign RA's, so mostly I hardly talk to other AI's at all (mind you, I only play Prince level).

 

[Louis XXIV]

I don't sell open borders and rarely, if ever, sell luxuries. I have no problem with RAs themselves, though. Is an RA strategy really all that different from a zero science tech trading strategy in Civ4?

Anyway, considering the substantial amount of the tech tree you need to research to get to stealth, I'm not sure it's really a beeline. How were the other AI at this point? Did getting stealth get you an advantage?

 

[ggmoyang]

I don't sell open borders and rarely, if ever, sell luxuries. I have no problem with RAs themselves, though. Is an RA strategy really all that different from a zero science tech trading strategy in Civ4?

Anyway, considering the substantial amount of the tech tree you need to research to get to stealth, I'm not sure it's really a beeline. How were the other AI at this point? Did getting stealth get you an advantage?

Most advanced civ at that time was Arabia. Since he was closest to me I dow'ed them.
They had mech infs, helicopters, rocket arts, tanks and fighters but no nukes. (they had no uranium)
Easily won the war and won game @ 255turn.

 

[Life123]

Imho part of the problem are also the stealth bombers. They are just absurdly overpowered. There is no way to stop them, besides maybe nukes.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Even though you easily won the war, that strikes me as a "no" as far as a significant tactical advantage. Gunships, Mech Inf, and fighters strike me as close to the peak of units they could have obtained. Certainly not significantly different overall.

ETA: I've never used Stealth Bombers before. If they have some absurd advantage over other units of the same era, that needs to be addressed. Doesn't mean the so-called beeline here is necessarily unbalanced, just the unit.

 

[basta]

It doesn't matter which late game unit you use. Anything works as long as you get them fast enough.

^This.

In my experience, the fastest domination games are those that start out as science. Even if I'm planning to conquer the world, I start like I'm going for Alpha Centuri.

And stealth bombers are one of those late-game units that are there to get the game over with. If you still can't finish off the AI with them, then your fallback is GDRs.

 

[Strategist83]

Deity Stealth Bombers turn 204. Out of one city. That. Is. Insane.

Obviously it has nothing to do with Stealth Bombers being overpowered (which they arguably are) but rather with how ridiculously large benefits you can get out of gaming the research agreement system.

Where is the +49 food coming from in that screenshot? Is it all maritime allies?

 

[svett89]

To the person wondering what made Stealth Bombers so good: they have an attack range of 20! With a few Stealth Bombers and some melee units you can snipe cities like mad.

 

[Life123]

Deity Stealth Bombers turn 204. Out of one city. That. Is. Insane.

Obviously it has nothing to do with Stealth Bombers being overpowered (which they arguably are) but rather with how ridiculously large benefits you can get out of gaming the research agreement system.

In fact it works with solely great scientists too. In the always war deity challenge (i.e., without any diplomacy) I also rushed to stealth bombers (hey, that is a surprisingly good strategy ) and had them at round 221, generating only ~300 beakers per turn (and I did not even use the scientific revolution policy) .

 

[dexters]

Small map helped and isolated start. Trying doing this on Pangea large map in a normal start and it will be much more difficult.

At least OP was honest enough to point out his starting conditions - still an interesting concept.

IMHO, Stealth Bomber the unit is way OP in this game. The AA mechanic needs to be adjusted to increase interception of bombers. Perhaps do it Civ3 style where adjacent AA increases interception rates.

If they make cities count as an AA battery, then an adjacent AA unit will improve overall AA performance.

Alternatively their effect needs to be toned down a tad.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Deity Stealth Bombers turn 204. Out of one city. That. Is. Insane.

Obviously it has nothing to do with Stealth Bombers being overpowered (which they arguably are) but rather with how ridiculously large benefits you can get out of gaming the research agreement system.

Well, no, it clearly does have to do with Stealth Bombers being overpowered. Otherwise, a Civ with Mechanized Infantry, Gunships, and Rocket Artillery should be a match for Stealth Bombers. In that case, the year you get the tech doesn't matter because everyone stays on the same footing. Granted, you might have issues with the pace of the game, but that's not the same thing as being exploitative. If he reached Stealth Bombers on turn 400 and still easily achieved the same results, the only difference would be he had to put more hours into the game. Doesn't change the strategy.

 

[Life123]

Btw. I always wondered what this "Evasion (100)" promotion of stealth bombers means. 100% evasion against anti-aircrafts and fighters seems to me too stupid to be true. On the other hand, stealth bombers seem to never lose more than 2-3 HPs, even when directly bombing mobile SAMs.

 

[TommyVern]

It's not a tech-rush if your enemy has the same level tech as you. Seems as though you just successfully won a game with stealth bombers.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I think the fair thing to do would be this.

Add Radar Ranges and Bomb Shelters. Radar Ranges should increase effectiveness of anti-air defense, shelters reduce damage caused by them (would also reduce damage caused by Nukes). Stealth Bombers would completely ignore the Radar bonus, but would still be limited by shelters. Fighters could still intercept them, they just won't get boosted by radar.