stealth_nsk
Deity
To code - yes. To test and balance - that's different story.
Still no word on game speeds?
- Thread starter El Caballerion
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To code - yes. To test and balance - that's different story.
Acken
Deity
Come on they'll just put the modifiers. Test it for bugs and call it a day.
My point is more that on all the things that could come unfinished at release, speeds are not something I'd worry about.
stealth_nsk
Deity
Come on they'll just put the modifiers. Test it for bugs and call it a day.
It would be quite bad to see science victory in medieval on some speeds, for example. At least several playthroughs are needed for each speed to test those modifiers. You can't just get them from previous game as some core game mechanics change. For example, with buildings adding flat numbers instead of percentages, the effect o modifiers on them changed.
Of course we're all worried about it.
nzcamel
Nahtanoj the Magnificent
You n me both.
The following speeds will be in civ 6:
- Online Speed
- Hyperquick
- Quick
- Normal
- Meganormal
- Epic
- Legend
- Half-Marathon
- Marathon
- Ultramarathon
- Insanity
... with the appropriate mods of course.
Ryika
Lazy Wannabe Artista
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I don't see how that would make a difference. Game Speed Modifiers are added as multiplicative numbers at the very end of the calculation.
Doesn't matter if the the base calculation is:
2 + 3 + 5
or
2 * 1.5 * 5
or
(2 + 3) * 5 * 2
both calculations end with a flat number and that number is then simply increased / decreased by game speed. The results of such a modifier are exactly the same, independent from how the base value was calculated.
But of course that's not even how game speeds are scaled, yields remain untouched, the things that scale are the costs of things - those are literally just fixed numbers that, if you add a 300% modifier onto them, take three times as long to construct/research/unlock. So I agree with Acken, as soon as you have the basic system for game-speed scaling in place you can just increase or decrease the numbers in any way you want and will (as long as you scale everything with the same numbers) end up with a reasonable result.
Problematic are only things that literally cannot be scaled that way, such as movement, but people know that - and in many cases play Marathon because it's more war-focused.
stealth_nsk
Deity
Let's take science. In civ5 it's generally pop * buildings, while in Civ6 it's pop + buildings. However, population is not static number - it depends on city growth which is affected by game speed modifier. So in general:
Civ6: (pop * speed) + (buildings * speed) = (pop + buildings) * speed
Civ5: (pop * speed) * (buildings * speed) = (pop + buildings) * speed ^ 2
The non-linear matter of dependencies and additional factors make this even more interesting.
Ryika
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My math is rusty at best, but I'm pretty sure the part I marked is the mistake that misleads you.
Population is not multiplied with speed, it's divided by speed (aka it grows slower the higher the game speed modifier, not faster).
Make it a division and the linear scaling works out just fine.
stealth_nsk
Deity
The modifiers are the same for population and for the rest. The faster game speed, the faster population growth per turn and the faster everything else is. But of course, it's oversimplification. There are a lot of factors which affect how speed modifiers are applied to the game. And those factors change with different game mechanics. For example, with increased district cost we could expect science districts in most of early cities, but more rare in cities acquired later. This affects the overall science output graph and how different speed parameters (like building cost) affect it.
Ryika
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Yes, but population is not multiplied with the modifier, the modifier is added to the growth threshold.
Your formula assumes that population grows faster the slower the game speed.
There is no population growth in this formula, it's just about how to calculate science with the population you have just now. The pop * speed refers to how much science each of your citizens produces without buildings which scales with game speed.
Ryika
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Ah... yeah, that explains the disconnect. In that case my correction is incorrect, the way I understood it was that he's trying to calculate the pop/buildings you'll have at point X during the game.
But then that formula makes no sense at all. Yield generation is not effected by modifiers. The thresholds that need to be reached are.
I think so, too.
stealth_nsk
Deity
You're right, I was wrong here. If all costs are affected with the same game speed modifiers, the game would scale nearly perfectly - except for movements not affected (like less "relative" turns required to settle the next city on slower speed).
However, as far as I'm aware, there are some things which don't scale with game speed in Civ5 (faith from meeting a religious city-state, Tourism gained by Futurism and so on). Those affect the game, but they are minor.
Ryika
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Yes, those things do indeed exist, and the Aztecs are a good example for something that could be very strong on Marathon (whether the "hardcap" on workable improvements keeps them in check remains to be seen) or really any Civ with some sort of military bonus when it comes to that.
But I'd say it's generally accepted that those things exist, at least I didn't see many complaints in Civ 5. As long as there's no bonuses that literally break the game (which in most cases will be rather obvious even with out extensive testing - things like being able to gain population from kills or something, if the chance is not scaled with speed as well) that should be fine.
But I'd say it's generally accepted that those things exist, at least I didn't see many complaints in Civ 5. As long as there's no bonuses that literally break the game (which in most cases will be rather obvious even with out extensive testing - things like being able to gain population from kills or something, if the chance is not scaled with speed as well) that should be fine.
Some eureka and inspiration boosts will provide a challenge for balancing on different game speeds. The 'foreign trade' boost for instance is 'Discover a second continent', which will be way easier on slower game speeds to achieve. I wonder how this will be balanced.
stealth_nsk
Deity
Also all combat-based and exploration-bases eurekas.
On the other hand, most late-game eurekas seem to be "build X something" or "research something from another tree", which should work ok.
Acken
Deity
Simple. It wont be balanced for speed. It will be easier on those speed and we will live with it.
The overall game was easier on slower speeds in civ5 and it didnt create much problems.
stealth_nsk
Deity
Yes, that's more likely scenario. However, having 2 factors to make game easier on slower speeds (eurekas and military) would make game even less balanced. Hope whatever AI mechanism for getting eurekas is - it's scaled with game speed well.
Leathaface
Emperor
The Marathon speed in Civ IV and Civ V is vastly different, even though they share the same name. Marathon games in Civ V can take a very long time to complete, while you could almost finish a Marathon game in Civ IV in a single night.
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