Still unable to get into CivIV

What I'm trying to say is... if you want to do well in the game, then analyze the game.

If you want to simulate your conception of real life and do well, then back off a level. Play at Noble or Warlord, or whatever, and you can simulate whatever you want.

Wodan

:ninja: edit: Sorry, I'm sarky today. Take my posts as more blunt as they should be for polite conversation. :)
 
Later techs could/should come slower then, IMHO. I get a feeling of rushing through things in CIV IV, almost as if racing the other civilizations. Thats not to say I don't enjoy the game, but I preferred the late nights of methodical progress. Felt to me like my civilization "developing", as opposed to "racing".

Play on a lower speed setting. I agree, normal speed is way too fast.
 
So, does Basil grow in Texas or not? What about... um... oregano? :p

The good thing about this game is that if you dont like something you can mod it, if it is something that is in the core aspects you can invest a buttload of time to mod it.
Honestly, I think if HuckFinn really wanted to pull away from specialization being the way it is, the hardest part would be coming up with what the new system will work like. Of course depending on the new system its possible it could also be a pain in the arse to implement too.

I agree with you on religion HuckFinn. Partly on the promotions bit as well, but I don't mind them so much. With a 1 value unit it needs some distinction to come in somewhere.
Civics I do enjoy, but I wish there was a little bit more too it. Most of the changes I wish to see I plan on modding myself though.
I am enitrely with you on how fast and boring the early game is. Again I plan on modding it myself as well. Meaningful communications do come in way too late. I personally am bringing mutual protection into play in ancient-classical times. I mean, 2 empires saying "you watch my back and I got yours" isn't too hard of a concept to understand.
I think the entire pacing issue is due to the new target audience they were aiming for.

Just throwing in my $.02 while I wait for everyone to meet up on yahoo for a MP C3 game.
 
So, does Basil grow in Texas or not? What about... um... oregano? :p
Our Basil is doing pretty well, actually. Oregano is not doing so well... the rain has done it in for the most part. Peppers are okay, too. Tomatoes are loving it. Jasmine has pretty much died though, plus some others.

Anyway you dang bastards need to hike up the global warming. Get out in your front yard spraying aerosol cans out into the open air or something. ;)

Wodan
 
Wodan,

IMO the "it's just a game" argument is a bit beside the issue, and one can always use it to sidestep any criticism, so it sort of nerfs any discussion before it can even start. If I were happy with a complete abstraction of a struggle of dominance between civilizations, I'd play chess. :)

If I get the feeling that I'm being a bad leader by not providing comprehensive living arrangements for my citizens, I hope I am entitled to my opinion... :)
 
CHESS! YAY!
*resume normal conversation*
anyways....If you want a slower pace, try a Marathon Huge Terra/Fractal. These are EVIL! The AI refuses to kill enemies in the Old World, instead declaring on their cities in the New World and looking back as an afterthought. War is a last resort here (at least for me, so if you have a different view, feel free to comment)
 
And, let's recognize that I'm talking about actual research vs actual conditions. It's not nearly so amorphous as actual, real-life political systems vs a friggin game.
Wodan

I don't necessarily think of Civ as a simulation, but we all like to approximate our games with reality from time to time (granted, in varying degrees). That approximation of realism is part of the fun. So the "just a game" justification isn't enough anymore. Aren't developers always striving to make our games more "real" anyway?

CHESS! YAY!
*resume normal conversation*
anyways....If you want a slower pace, try a Marathon Huge Terra/Fractal. These are EVIL! The AI refuses to kill enemies in the Old World, instead declaring on their cities in the New World and looking back as an afterthought. War is a last resort here (at least for me, so if you have a different view, feel free to comment)

I play on Epic Huge Fractal. I'd like Marathon if construction times for units were scaled properly.
 
If they were scaled exactly, then it would play much like Epic/Normal/Quick while having to press the End Turn button more.
 
But movement costs would remain the same, allowing for more exploration and bigger wars. I always thought the consensus before was that Marathon favors the human player, because the AI isn't particularly good at handling large wars.

Maybe if building production and unit production maintained similar cost ratios, just scaled larger, and techs required increased amounts of beakers, not to the current ratio, then everything would develop more slowly, simply because you would tech slower.
 
1) they wouldn't be bigger wars. Because the build time for units is scaled, you would have exactly as many military units.

2) the ONLY difference is that movement times would be exaggerated a bit more.
 
I dunno, as a long time civ player I think Civ IV, especially with both expansions, is as good as it's ever been, by far.

1. Unit promotions allow you to customize your units. A good thing. You can adapt them to your strategy, terrain, situation, whatever. There is no one unit to dominate with. You can't just build one type of unit. There is choice, and choice driven by strategic thinking.

2. Religion isn't really neutered. It's actually very powerful and meaningful. It ties into wonders, strategy, and most importantly diplomacy. Religion is a factor that gives meaning to AI decision making and behavior and game flow. Instead of AIs doing random things, like randomly declaring war, they will often do so instead for reglious reasons, or due to blocks of AIs forming pseudo-alliances due to religions. Religion adds a ton to the game just in the diplomatic ties. Religion also ties in to civics, commerce, wonders - lots of things.

I think it's cool that in many games civs will settle and align in blocs, largely driven by religion, that can affect the entire course of the game, increase the "every game is different" factor, and give each game a lot more personality. This is vastly superior to Civ I-III where you just had a world full of civs with no real relationships or reasons for behavior.

I played a ton of Civ III and often hated how random and erratic the AIs were. AIs in Civ IV are usually way less erratic and much more logical in behavior. Religion is often (but not always, or it'd be equally lame) a big factor - and as a player, you can help forge or at least understand why an AI is doing something beyond a random dice roll causing a world war.

The ones who say religion is neutered are the ones who want the named religions to have certain powers or abilities and whatnot, which makes no sense in this game design, because the powers and abilities are selected by YOU in how you choose your civics, what wonders you build, and stuff like that that leverages your religion. Not to mention that it would be insensative and volatile to presume to tie certain behaviors or abilities to certain religions. If you as a player want Judaism to be a violent warmongering religion then it's up to you to found it, pick warlike religious civics, go to war, and live that selection - it's not up to the game designers to say that 'religion x' gives such and such bonus to war.

Religion is far from neutered in Civ IV!

3. The civic system in Civ IV is by far the best ever - because it lets you choose how to run your civ rather than being forced into narrowminded pre-selected and limited "sets." Strategy gaming is all about having and making choices. The more wide open and fully customizeable civic system in Civ IV leads you to making lots of choices - a very good thing. The civics system also ties in to the different victory paths, since often your civic choices are very supportive of your road to victory - but at a cost since they can hurt you in other ways. The top level choices in the Civ IV civic system are not always the best option - it all depends on your strategy. The game doesn't force you to constantly upgrade your civics (unless you happen to select 'yes' every time you research one and are asked if you want to change!)

Civics can also tie into diplomacy. An AI might like or dislike you based on your civic choices. It's another way to get AIs to behave and act for a reason instead of doing things randomly.

4. The tech tree in Civ IV is different. I'm not sure I'd call it strange. As I find myself pointing out repeatedly to people who should already know this - Civ is a game - not a historical simulation. There's really little reason to get hung up on historical inaccuracies in one smidge or even one aspect of Civ, since the game is only historically flavored and not meant to recreate history. The tech tree is meant to be historically inspired and balanced for good gameplay, not historically accurate.

I think the early ages can whiz by in all of Civ - it's not faster in Civ IV - and it really has to do with how you're playing. If you're a warmonger at any time the game slows up. If you just turtle the game flies by regardless. Civ IV also offers a variety of game speeds. If you play on epic or marathon the game stretches out nicely and units/structures from each time period have longer lives.

I also think pace has a bit to do with how expansion occurs. Depending on the setup, you could easily be settling for ages in Civ III, because all you did for a long time was to settle every piece of land you could get to. Civ IV slows down the settling by making it increasingly expensive, so you usually end up plopping down fewer cities initially and needing to research and develop infrastructure to support more expansion, and this could give the impression a faster game because you're not managing so many settlers or so much expansion.

5. I don't see a difference in game pacing with Civ IV and I don't see the AIs being "in cahoots". :P Civ IV is not Civ III. It can take a while to learn it, since you're basically learning a new but familiar game.

6. IMO, saying you're a veteran of Civ I-III doesn't mean much when it comes to Civ IV, other than to express that you're a fan of the series. It doesn't automagically mean you'll be good at Civ IV or anything like that.

The best advice one can give, I think, is something that was said a lot when these kinds of threads came out in the early days of Civ IV. And that is, treat Civ IV like a new game and open your mind up to learning how to play it. Civ IV isn't just a Civ III expansion with pretty graphics and a few new features. Civ IV is the spirit of Civ with many systems completely reworked for (much) better gameplay. Civ IV is more about doing things based on logic and reason instead of "this is how the game does things."
 
1) they wouldn't be bigger wars. Because the build time for units is scaled, you would have exactly as many military units.

2) the ONLY difference is that movement times would be exaggerated a bit more.

Sorry, I responded to the other statement without explaining what I meant correctly.

I meant that Marathon could (and the math isn't correct here, but just for demonstration purposes) double the cost for production, ie buildings, units and wonders take twice as long as a standard game. And the techs come at thrice the beakers of a standard game.

When I first played a Civ IV game way back when, I noticed the game sped up in every way. I assumed that marathon and epic games were adjustments for this, but they aren't truly. Id like to re-work tech times, but not proportionally to everything else. But I understand it can be modded, (don't know of one that is nicely paced though) and it's more of a minor sort of gripe.
 
Our Basil is doing pretty well, actually. Oregano is not doing so well... the rain has done it in for the most part. Peppers are okay, too. Tomatoes are loving it. Jasmine has pretty much died though, plus some others.

Anyway you dang bastards need to hike up the global warming. Get out in your front yard spraying aerosol cans out into the open air or something. ;)

Wodan

Our garden is doing pretty good also. Got a fat tomato plant, bell peppers, chili peppers, and jalapenos. But our weather has been extremely generous being in the smack dab middle of the midwest.
You have an interesting variety. May I ask, although off-topic and started as a joke (I honestly didn't think you had a garden :lol:) why you would grow jasmine?

NovaDream said:
I don't necessarily think of Civ as a simulation, but we all like to approximate our games with reality from time to time (granted, in varying degrees). That approximation of realism is part of the fun. So the "just a game" justification isn't enough anymore. Aren't developers always striving to make our games more "real" anyway?
Nicely put. And I am of the mind the game should always place gameplay over realism. I still think this but you make a valid point on the issue. However, I do think that "just a game" is and will always be justification. First off, mainly because it is a game or a "fake" version of "real" it can never be accurate. So trying to obtain an entirely realistic system is trying to obtain the impossible. As then you get into the fact that one legionary is more trained than another because he is from a family of highly ranked roman officers or another soldier is obese compared to another's physique. (sp?) Too many small factors will always abstract from really being able to pinpoint a unit's measure. And the fact that real life is not ran off of a value system which currently all strategy games must use or else the computer can't distinguish between two different objects.

My point is though trying to model after realism is fine. And I agree it adds a nice touch to the system. But some form of abstraction will always be there. As there are no absolute values in life. Its all relative.

What is most important is that the gameplay is balanced and fun. Realism comes in through those two. Some of the most fun strategy games are sci-fi and fantasy because they don't have a model to really be "realistic" against. So more time goes into making sure everything is simply balanced and fun. Although somehow with fantasy when they do "magic spheres" they tend to throw off the balance alot. But Sci-fi and fantasy tend to do a good job overall, with sci-fi leading the two.
 
Our garden is doing pretty good also. Got a fat tomato plant, bell peppers, chili peppers, and jalapenos. But our weather has been extremely generous being in the smack dab middle of the midwest.
You have an interesting variety. May I ask, although off-topic and started as a joke (I honestly didn't think you had a garden :lol:) why you would grow jasmine?
Well, it's really a combination herb/decorative garden in the front yard. The tomatos and some of the peppers are in pots in the back... too straggly and big to ever be "presentable" in the front.

My point is though trying to model after realism is fine. And I agree it adds a nice touch to the system. But some form of abstraction will always be there. As there are no absolute values in life. Its all relative.
Good way to explain it.

Let's take it one step further... if we (the player) impose a less abstract level of simulation than the game is designed to accommodate, then isn't it natural to expect that there will be an imperfect result?

It's like... expecting a 5-course gourmet meal out of a pizza parlor. Your level of expectation is not something that the pizza parlor is designed to provide.

And, I'm not talking about quality. Consider a quality pizza vs a very disappointing gourmet meal. Quality is different from scope of goods/services provided.

Wodan
 
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