Strategies for catching up in Tech.

Roundman

Prince
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I've read plenty of posts sying that they can get the AI to trade them multiple techs in a turn and be a tech broker, pulling themselves ahead in the tech race in the early middle ages. I've never had that happen. If I miss the Great Library, I have to conquer my closest neigbor and extort techs from them just to keep up. If I can build the Great Library, then I make a beeline for Darwin's. If I can build Darwin's, then I have most likely "won" the tech race. The problem is I don't like having a strategy that almost completely depends on building two Wonders.


My last game (on monarch), the AI managed to build both the GL and later Darwins, and I was behind in the tech race all the way up to Superconductor. (If one AI civ builds Darwins, its like every other AI civ built Darwin's, thanks to the shady AI tech trading. Preventing the AI from building Darwin's is a key strategy.)

I was Germany, a Scientific civ. My civ was the largest civ on the map, about 23-30% larger than the next largest civ, with an advanced infrastructure, but I had trouble keeping pace, due to the intra-AI tech trading. Civs 1/4th my size were 11 techs ahead of me at one point, and refused any trade I would make. I hadn't broken any treaties, I offered huge sums of gold, but still had no takers. Just to see what would happend, I offered 6000 gold to China for Ecology. No trade.

I have found that the only way to keep up is to research something that no one else usually does, like Miniturization, Genetics, Printing Press, etc., and trading them around for better techs. However, that strategy is tough when you just discovered Education and the rest of the world has steam power. I was lucky that I was large enough to eventually catch up, as well as being lucky enough that the AI started fighting amongst themselves. Does anyone have any good strategies for keeping up in techs in the upper levels of the game.
 
You've got to start trading techs as soon as you get to know other civs. Also, as soon as you get to one tech, you should contact all other civs and see if they have any techs worth trading for. But, if it is a wonder tech, you should be more careful about trading it, as you might lose your wonder then!

So, just to sum up, you should be much more aggressive about trading, the AI always trades among itself, and doesn't think twice about letting you out...
 
Originally posted by DAKjungF
You've got to start trading techs as soon as you get to know other civs. Also, as soon as you get to one tech, you should contact all other civs and see if they have any techs worth trading for. But, if it is a wonder tech, you should be more careful about trading it, as you might lose your wonder then!

I already do these things. My question is what should you do if all of the sudden you're behind by 8-9 techs. What happened in my last game was that I had more or less tech parity with the other civs on my continent. The AI on the other Continent was much further advanced than my continent was, and encountered the AI civs on my continent during their turn. By the time it was my turn again, they had traded their techs to the AI on my continent, but refused to trade me a tech for any price. I had no chance to discover something that they didn't know, because they knew everything before me. Furthermore, I couldn't buy tech from them because they wouldn't sell them/ trade luxuries for them. It was probably because I was the largest civ, but it felt like it was me competing against one giant AI civ. I had to be a Democracy, make a beeline for Cavalry, invade my small neigbhor and extory a few techs just to catch up to with 6 techs of the AI. They had infantry before I had nationalism! I did eventually catch up, though, and I won through space race.
 
Techs are cheaper when more civs know them (this includes buying and selling). Unless you really need a tech, don't buy it from a civ if they're the only one you know that has it. On larger maps, the faster you meet more civs the cheaper tech prices will get (I have found this to be highly integral to the tech process). Exploration is a great way to counter science. Discover civs, tech goes down. Discover more civs, sell contacts for science. Discover more civs, barter science you bought from someone else. Et cetera. This is one reason why playing on huge maps can actually be easier than small ones.
 
Originally posted by SolarFlare
Techs are cheaper when more civs know them (this includes buying and selling). Unless you really need a tech, don't buy it from a civ if they're the only one you know that has it. On larger maps, the faster you meet more civs the cheaper tech prices will get

Yes, theoretically. But the AI trades/gives its techs to all other AI civs. Everyone in the world knows it but me. So that means that the tech should be cheaper, right? Wrong. They still won't trade it, not even "innocent" advances like Printing Press or Banking to me, even if I offfer 1500 gold. They wouldn't even trade with me when I only had 1 turn left until I discovered that particular tech, and that's something the AI always offers (I never do that, but I usually check to see if I can) This is after every other civ in the game already has the tech. Trading for techs wasn't an option for me, even though I had a robust civ with plenty to trade, as well as embassies with all other civs. They would trade luxuries and resources with me, just not techs, regardless of how useless the tech was or how much I was offering.

Why weren't they trading with me? Any ideas? Has this happened to anyone else before?
 
The AI places a very high value on techs. By the time you get to the later ages, a couple thousand gold may not cover even a single tech. Also, I don't believe the AI lowers the price of a tech if you are researching it.

When you say you had plenty to trade, are you talking pure gold or what? If you offer things like gpt, lux, resources, etc., the AI may not trade for it if you have ever gotten a rep hit (and it sounds like you may; having a larger territory than others I assume you've been to war a few times). Also price depends on attitude to a small degree.

Why not post a .sav?
 
Another wierd thing that I have noticed is that the AI will NEVER trade government techs unless it is doing so after you've beat it in a war. I've been in a position where I've been a Democracy for over 200 years, the Hanging Gardens are already obsolete, and a civ still wouldn't trade me Monarchy.
 
Originally posted by SolarFlare
The AI places a very high value on techs. By the time you get to the later ages, a couple thousand gold may not cover even a single tech. Also, I don't believe the AI lowers the price of a tech if you are researching it.

It knows what you are researching and how far from it you are. The AI will almost always offer to trade you if you are 1 turn away from discovering that tech.

When you say you had plenty to trade, are you talking pure gold or what? If you offer things like gpt, lux, resources, etc., the AI may not trade for it if you have ever gotten a rep hit (and it sounds like you may; having a larger territory than others I assume you've been to war a few times). Also price depends on attitude to a small degree.

I had lump sums of Gold, large GPT, Resources, and Luxuries. I had one rep hit (I made peace before an alliance was over), but the AI was still willing to make trades involving gpt, luxuries, or resources. As far as attitude goes, the AI wouldn't trade me techs even if they were allied with me. My theory is that they wanted to gang up on me so they could have the edge in weaponry, even though I had the edge in size. This situation happens fairly regularly to me, even if I'm not the largest civ and I even if I've never broken a treaty. Sorry, I have so save file, since I finished the game.
 
Hi Roundman,

I noticed you said you had plenty of infrastructure built in your cities. My question is, "Do you have libraries and universities in all your cities?" How about research labs? When I go into the Modern ages, I first research Computers, so I can get the Seti program wonder, and also computers lets you build research labs. (Being able to build mech infantry don't hurt either :) ) How about Copernicus's Observatory? You might want to think about getting that wonder too. I like to build Copernicus's Observatory and the Seti prgram in the same city. Makes it a super science city. Not that I can always do this, but when I can, it is nice. Turn some of the extra workers into scientists too in that city.

I've also found that there is usually one or two civs that are behind the others in Tech. If your able to trade a tech they don't have from one of the tech leaders, then sell it to them, you can usually get a good deal of tech in the bargain. You proably know this, sounds like this didn't happen in your game.

All in all, unless your willing to wage endless war, tech trading is the way to go. Have you tried throwing in GPT with your lump sums? Just a thought. Sounds like in your post you were usually offering just a lump sum.

Actually I have found that trying to get techs for peace from the civs is almost useless. They can be down a bunch of cities and they still won't give any techs away. Maybe one or two. No more. I used to go that route in the old Civilzation III versions, but it is no longer a valid option in the newer versions, ie PTW. When I've tried it, I get so far behind in infrastructure there is no hope of catching up, and the payoff (one or two techs) just isn't worth it. Although the land/cities and new resources/luxuries is nice, your just too far behind in infrastructure and tech.

If your interested in a Great Library Exploit. Not sure if this is an exploit, just devious I think. Read the thread Addition to Great Library Exploit in this forum. It's a great way to catch up on tech, if you don't mind being a little devious. :)
 
Hi Roundman,

Another thing that comes to mind is are you building your Forbidden Palace soon enough to benefit from it? Also how you place your cities around your capitol is important in fighting corruption. I know you weren't asking about corruption, but less corruption means more infrastructure etc. There are posts/advice strategies on site for this info. Check out the advice on RCP (Ring City Placement), OCP (Optimal City Placement) and there is a recent thread that shows that corruption is figured mainly by the distance from your captiol of your first city. Which messes up the whole RCP theory, and is worth reading. Here are the links:

Ring City Placement: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57026

Negate Rank Corruption: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62851

Optimal City Placement: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_builders_dream.shtml#b1

And last but not least, the Palace Jump:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47304

P.S. It is sometimes a good idea not to wait for a great leader to build the Forbidden Palace. You can build it close to your Palace, then do a Palace Jump to another location.

All of these can help you lower corruption significantly. Which means more infrastructure faster. Which translates to more tech. I hope this helps. :)
 
Thanks for your suggestions.

Originally posted by Minstrel
I noticed you said you had plenty of infrastructure built in your cities. My question is, "Do you have libraries and universities in all your cities?"

Yes. I am the Germans, and the Library is the first thing that I build in each city. I always build Universities and Labs ASAP. The problem is that the AI always has Education before me (unless of course I have the Great Library. However, I'm formulating strategies for when I don't get it.) When they beat me, then they build Universities, furthering their lead.

How about Copernicus's Observatory? You might want to think about getting that wonder too.

I don't think I've ever been close to buildig Copernicus', simply because the computer beelines to it. If I have the lead in the late Industrial/Modern age, I always build SETI. If I can build SETI, though, I am already in the lead. I'm a pretty experienced player (7 years of Civ, starting with Civ 2), and I know all about super science cities and the like.

I've also found that there is usually one or two civs that are behind the others in Tech. If your able to trade a tech they don't have from one of the tech leaders, then sell it to them, you can usually get a good deal of tech in the bargain.

This is the technique that I use to catch up when I'm behind. That's the key to my problem. It seems that the AI will ONLY trade tech for tech, nothing else. The AI WILL NOT trade tech for gold, GPT, resouces, or luxuries. There has to be tech tossed in the trade. I was wondering what trade techniques people use, because I just CANNOT get the AI to trade with me, and it seems like, without the Great Library, I'm behind in tech until at least the middle of the Industrial Age. Even with the GL, I still get behind in the Middle Ages, though I beeline for Darwin's to get back ahead and to get to Hoover Dam.

Actually I have found that trying to get techs for peace from the civs is almost useless. They can be down a bunch of cities and they still won't give any techs away. Maybe one or two. No more.

They are willing to trade if they only have one or two cities left.
 
Originally posted by Minstrel
Hi Roundman,

Another thing that comes to mind is are you building your Forbidden Palace soon enough to benefit from it?

I know all about this suff. As I say I'm an experience player. I can win almost every game on Monarch. I just need to get some tips on what they do to get the AI to trade techs with them if they don't have techs of their own to trade.
 
Originally posted by Roundman
the AI will ONLY trade tech for tech, nothing else. The AI WILL NOT trade tech for gold, GPT, resouces, or luxuries.
That's a huge lie. Perhaps the AI just doesn't want your dirty money ;).
I know all about this suff. As I say I'm an experience player. I can win almost every game on Monarch.
I guess having played the game for seven years doesn't necessarily make a person experienced :p.
 
Originally posted by SolarFlare
I guess having played the game for seven years doesn't necessarily make a person experienced :p.

This is the only thing that I can't figure out. I don't know why the AI won't take mone from me for techs. They take gpt for other hings, such as luxuries :confused:
 
As I said before (I'll try to say it a bit differently), the AI may not take gpt from you in exchange for a one-time offer (such as a tech, map, gold). They sometimes irrationally fear that you won't pay it out in full, thus reject even some excellent offers. For example, if you have ever had even the slightest rep hit, the AI would not give you world map in exchange for 1000gpt. The same thing applies to luxuries and resources, which are like gpt deals (they can be broken).
 
I understand that, and I think that that was the key in this game. What I really don't understand is the Monarchy situation that I described earlier.
 
To be honest, I am seldom behind in Tech on the Monarch level. I find that taking advantage of tech trading, early infrastructure, good city placement to reduce corruption, a goodly amount of luxuries and resources, due to an early land grab of another civs territory generally makes me the tech leader. This is without building the Great Library. If I build the Great Library that is just icing on the cake.
 
Originally posted by Minstrel
To be honest, I am seldom behind in Tech on the Monarch level. I find that taking advantage of tech trading, early infrastructure, good city placement to reduce corruption, a goodly amount of luxuries and resources, due to an early land grab of another civs territory generally makes me the tech leader. This is without building the Great Library. If I build the Great Library that is just icing on the cake.

What type of landmass do you play with?
 
The reason why I ask is that I always use medium size continents. I am always in the lead until the two continents discover each other. The other continent always seems to be larger, and they are always technologically ahead. It is only after the first contact that I get behind and no one will trade.
This has happened to me at least 15 straight games.
I guess no one else experiences this.
 
Originally posted by Roundman


What type of landmass do you play with?

Usually I play Continets, large map, default rules. Sometimes I will switch up for variety. I understand your problem with tech trading. I play only Deity games now. I have won my third Deity game in PTW, and think I can win just about every time now. It took me awhile to get there, but once your there, you know you can do it again. Two of my wins were Space Race Victory, so I do understand tech trading. What I was trying to say in my posts was that early infrastructure is important. Low corruption is important to achieve infrastructure. As you stated you already know this. Solar Flare pointed out a good point, If you have a hit on your Rep, it's hard(er) to get that good deal. Although I gotta say at Monarch, I usually shot my Rep all to hell. LOL I dunno, the deals are there, I usually find them. I guess the thing is NOT to get so far behind in Tech, that you can't make ANY trades by swapping Techs someone else doesn't have. You have to maintain partial tech parity at least. Thanks for listening. :)
 
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