Submarine Warfare

[Blitz79]

I was reading a book lately about German U-boat tactics in WWII. How do people use subs in civ II? I am not too hot at using my navy at the moment, and I have found subs are a good way to go, just for denying control in certain areas. One good tactic is to get an aircraft carrier with two or three fighters in it to extend the visibility of the subs, but that's about all I've discovered.
But how do you get in close with subs - or a High Seas Fleet - and take out an enemy at Sea? I can destroy an enemy on land in no time but I always take heavy losses at Sea cos my naval tactics are rubbish. Which is the best unit? Do you keep in formation or spread out?

 

[Marlos]

Subs are a minor part of my naval strategy, since they move slowly and cannot bombard land units. I generally will use a cruiser or AEGIS as an escort, keeping them closer to land and keeping the sub three or four squares away from land (minimum).

However, subs can be useful to carry cruise missiles to remote locations. Even at veteran status, though, their defense stinks so don't spend too much time and resources building them.

BTW, I understand that the German submarine strategy in WWII has been criticized for being haphazardly executed. Their basic strategy was to fill the water with as many U-boats as possible, and there was little in the way of actual "strategy". Short of keeping merchant vessels from reaching their destinations, the Germans did not utilize their fleet well, unlike their Japanese counterparts.

 

[Blitz79]

I came away pretty impressed at the German sub strategy. They had about 26 boats in the opening phases and needed 300 for outright victory. Their strategy was to have 'wolf-packs' - occasionally, but not always - controlled by Donitz from supreme command who would radio them in to their targets.
I didn't know the Japanese HAD many subs! How did they use them? I really like subs, and usually try to build around 60 as the backbone of my fleet. It's just that as soon as an effective enemy fleet comes along, the whole thing degenerates into a war of attrition and even though I usually win, I take big losses, which I really hate. Enemy battleships in particular nearly always lose me a unit or two to take out, which is just annoying.
Do cruise missiles actually do anything then? I guess I could use those to scout out, which would save me using carriers - and also as a back-up. I've never actually used them in this way. I'll check it out, maybe they will be cool. Sub speed is a problem but I think so far the main observation I have for fleet warfare is to have 'eyes and ears' (fighters/missiles) because he who sees, wins.

 

[Dark Ascendant]

In Civ2, subs stink. Put cruise missiles on your subs and have them travel in groups. Attack lone warships or transport away from reinforcements. One sub attacks, others act as backup and retaliation if first sub is attacked. The best way to use subs is to keep them close to support of other surface warships. A good strategy is to keep them in ports and attack enemy ships next to your port. Subs with low speed and defense were not made to function without support for long. I don't really recommend building any subs since AEGIS cruisers are much more effective in staying alive and low range missions.

My strategy for modern ships:

Destroyer-Patrol, recon, ASW, decoy for AI ships, expendible. Put them in between AI ships and your own to slow them down if situation is desperate.

Cruiser-Attacking threats near waters of your nation, ASW, escort for transport. These are most of my navy to protect my waters from invasion and escorts.

Battleship-Protect with other warships, coastal bombardment. Low speed makes this not so great as a warship, but a mobile seige machine.

Submarine-Attack/retaliate against warships, put in port, put back into port at end of turn, expendible, useful against unescorted transports or close warship alone in the water. Use these if the cruisers weren't enough.

AEGIS-Best ASW, effective ship killer, some shore bombardment, escort for carriers/battleships against air strikes. These are the best ships in the game, they're fast, strong at attack and defense, can operate in enemy waters longer than most other ships, seek out and kill other ships.

Transport-use to land invasion troops, escort if loaded, put troops on multiple transports as insurance, travel behind warships, move forward only if invasion route is secured by warships, stack with more powerful ship.

Carrier-Expensive on resources to load up and build, carrier battle groups with bombers are most powerful force on the sea. Use bombers and stealth fighter to provide close air support for invasion forces.

 

[knightblk]

I have one question,

HOW DO YOU KEEP CARRIERS SAFE FROM ENEMY CRUISE MISSLES, just today i lost a carrier with 5 stealth fighters to a cruise missle attack that just kept comming (10-20 missles).

 

[Dark Ascendant]

Originally posted by knightblk
I have one question,

HOW DO YOU KEEP CARRIERS SAFE FROM ENEMY CRUISE MISSLES, just today i lost a carrier with 5 stealth fighters to a cruise missle attack that just kept comming (10-20 missles).

Stack the carrier with AEGIS cruisers. Their defense is increased 5 times against cruise missile attack. Use the AEGIS's as a "shield" for the carrier.

 

[Blitz79]

This is all good advice, but when I develop new tactics I do so under the assumption that I will one day have to fight in situations where I have less units, less technology and less room for manouvre than my opponent(s).
That means a lot of stuff which woks great when you've got loads of resources just falls apart when you're in deep trouble - like a major land and sea war where you can only afford minor resources to the navy. How do you win Sea wars in these situations? Saying ships are 'expendable' is all very well, but if you've only got ten of them, they're not. Also, I find that by the AEGIS stage of the game, the issue has been mostly resolved. I would love to use them, but I rarely get that far in the game with a powerful enemy still intact.

 

[starlifter]

Only build Vet AEGIS cruisers, and stack more of them in heavy fire areas. Let some rest while others protect. Send in more Vet AEGIS to the stack if necessary. The AI can "see" the exact location of your capital ships at all times, and the missiles they fire do not fly enroute, like human missiles must do. The AI missiles simply "magically" appear on top of your ship as soon as it is in range. On the production turn, an AI missile produced in any city in it's empire can be fired instantly from any other city anywhere in it's empire. That's why the torrent of missiles will often flow.

This production and and unleashing of AI missiles applies to Nukes as well... any AI missiles "see" all targets all the time (even in unexplored territory), and can be produced and launched as above. Note: Once a missile is produced and resided in an AI city, then it cannot be magically transported and fired.

 

[starlifter]

About Subs: if I build them (rare), then I use them to defend relatively stationary stacks of capital ships and transports offshore. I want my capital ships to be recovering, not attacking minor targets that need wasting, like enemy destroyers and transports. I also use the subs to damage AI Vet Battleships so my Vet Battleships will win, and be fairly strong in front line areas. I also used spies in the same capacity, if available.

Subs are cheap and expendable, and their role (if I use them) is mainly for attacking weak targets and saving my really valuable ships for serious battles. I also use subs in certain port cities at times, to attack passing AI. Magellans is a high priority for me, so subs are 5-move units in my book.

 

[Dark Ascendant]

Originally posted by Blitz79
This is all good advice, but when I develop new tactics I do so under the assumption that I will one day have to fight in situations where I have less units, less technology and less room for manouvre than my opponent(s).
That means a lot of stuff which woks great when you've got loads of resources just falls apart when you're in deep trouble - like a major land and sea war where you can only afford minor resources to the navy. How do you win Sea wars in these situations? Saying ships are 'expendable' is all very well, but if you've only got ten of them, they're not. Also, I find that by the AEGIS stage of the game, the issue has been mostly resolved. I would love to use them, but I rarely get that far in the game with a powerful enemy still intact.

If you are outnumbered at sea, fight dirty. Load up several transports or any wooden ships that hadn't been mothballed with spies and go around bribing ships if you have the cash or sabotaging them if you're low on cash. Soften them up, and then send in the warships, if you need to send warships.

 

[Ace]

The real poblem with subs against the AI, is that the element of surprise is lost. The AI always knows where your subs are so trying to sneak up on it is impossible. For that reason, I usually do not build subs, but they can be used with other ships to good advantage if you co ordinate your fleet movements.

As an aside, Subs with lighthouse and/or Magellen's can be deadly against a human player who does not have the AI's perfect knowledge of your subs locations.

 

[ferenginar]

My understanding was that the German U-boat strategy was very effective in cutting the trans-Atlantic supply route, up until the codebreakers at Bletchley Park cracked the enigma machine. After that the British knew exactly where the wolf packs were and what their orders were. They could then be easily avoided and destroyed.

As for the use of submarines in civ 2, I have rarely built them, as the AI seems to take them out so easily, no doubt cheating on the 'See subs'. I have also seen the AI control the seas with a fleet of subs, so that I was unable to enter that field of play. Fortunately, I was able to take out the base cities with land based bombers and tanks. Then the sea became mine for an aid to the mopping up.

ferenginar 89

 

[Dark Ascendant]

To sum it up, subs are not effective. AEGIS cruisers, and many destroyers for naval superiority. That's the way!

 

[Dark Ascendant]

Originally posted by Dark Ascendant
To sum it up, subs are not effective. AEGIS cruisers, and many destroyers for naval superiority. That's the way!

Maybe I was wrong and subs do have a purpose. They're bad warships but a great missile delivery. In stead of using them as warships, put them in the ocean to refuel missiles to hit an enemy out of range, the alternative is to build a city or airbase between your two civs to refuel planes and missiles, this is easier since you don't have to send an engineer to some island and back.

 

[starlifter]

I know it's not subs, but has anyone ever seen an AI nuke a pile of capital ships? I have not, but it may be because of my playstyle.

 

[Dark Ascendant]

Originally posted by starlifter
I know it's not subs, but has anyone ever seen an AI nuke a pile of capital ships? I have not, but it may be because of my playstyle.

Me either.

 

[ferenginar]

What is a capital ship?

ferenginar 85

 

[Old n Slow]

What is a capital ship?

BB -- Battleship
CV -- Carrier
CA -- Cruiser (inc. Aegis)

 

[ferenginar]

Ta,

I was wondering what the significance of ships built in the capital could possibly be.

ferenginar 82

 

[Ace]

quote:
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Originally posted by starlifter
I know it's not subs, but has anyone ever seen an AI nuke a pile of capital ships? I have not, but it may be because of my playstyle.
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Never happens. The only ships I have ever lost to nukes were in or next to a port city when the AI nuked the city. I have never seen the AI use a nuke against a ship, even a juicy target with many BBs, Ageis, and multilple Transports, loaded with troops.