Suggestion - number of cities

mg2plus

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
Messages
4
Whats wrong

Well, I dont know about other players of Civilization 1,2,3, but the thing that I disliked the most was that last part of the game when u have tons of cities producing even more units, so controlling them was hell. Each turn was taking so long to play that in the next turn I would forget what I was trying to do in the previous one. Especially annoying was the AI who capitalized by building lots of cities, since he has no problem of managing them.

Fixes that dont work

I guess that the game developers understood the problem, so they tried to counter it with 2 mechanisms. The first was corruption, which decreased production as the cities were farther from capitol. Although this is a good mechanism that, in my opinion, enhanches the gameplay and makes it more realistic, it did not fix the original problem. It was still profitable to build many,many cities (say 30) near the capitol, no matter what the terain was.

The second mechanism is governors. First, this mehanism fails becouse it only manages cities, not the units, which remained the problem. Also, I dont like the governors. If I am letting the computer to manage my cities, then I am not playing the game. Whats the joy in programming AI to play the whole game instead of player? Then player is not a player anymore. Also, you can never create a governor that would manage a city exactly as player wishes.
In short, no AI can replace the thinking of a player.

The solution

The simplest solution that I can think of is to create another form of corruption (working along the 'traditional' corruption). This form of corruption would increase as the number of cities increase. A good formulae would be

corruption = 1 - (1 - b)^n

where
corruption - the corruption that wuld be applied to every city
b - constant, the basic corruption per city factor
n - number of cities

for example, lets sat tht we choose b=10%. Then the coruption depends only on number of cities:

number of cities ______ corruption
1 __________________ 10%
2 __________________ 19%
3 __________________ 27%
4 __________________ 34%
5 __________________ 41%
6 __________________ 47%

This corruption is applied to every city. Obviously, if this mechanism is employed, then there is some number of cities after which it is not profitable to build more cities. That number, and the above table depends on factor b, which should be choosen by developers.

I personally like to play with only a few cities, so b=10% suits me fine. Howewer, there may be people who like to play with huge civilizations. So, I got even better idea. The b factor should be chosen on start of the game, on the same way that the size of the map an the number of competing civs are choosen. The choices could be:

Small civilizations (b=10%)
Medium civilizations (b=6%)
Large civilizations (b=2%)

Also, b factor should affect your final score.

The number of units will be directly affected by number of cities. If it is required to even further decrease the number of units, this could be done with stronger, more expensive units (or some concept like armies).

Well, I hope at least someone will like my idea.
 
mg2plus said:
Well, I dont know about other players of Civilization 1,2,3, but the thing that I disliked the most was that last part of the game when u have tons of cities producing even more units, so controlling them was hell.
Why not play on a smaller map then?
 
My sugestion is not intended to create a more realistic gameplay. I just wanted to improve the gameplay by eliminating, in my opinion, the worst gameplay issue. What I am trying to do is limit the number of cities in a wery straightforward way.

Different goverments should have no effect on the concept. Otherwise changing the goverment will imply building new cities or destroying old ones in order to play optimally. This is a too big penalty, so i think that goverments should have no impact.

As for the different size of maps, even on tiny maps with lots of seawater it is possible to build over 50 cities, which is still too much. Also, I like to explore too. I would like to play on big maps, but with limited number of cities.
 
No, I personally don't like this model at all. It discourage people from growing their empire, and penalize players for being good at building cities. I don't like that.
Plus, the game designers already said corruption is gone for civ4. They are not going to add another corruption on top of the current corruption model.
 
Exellent idea. This will probably stop peapole from building "streets"....

At least it could be a enable/disable game rule.....
 
Mewtarthio said:
Are you thinking of a Communal version of Rank Corruption?

I must admit, I didnt know of rank corruption until now that U have told me. I have studied the material available on this forum about rank corruption, and I must say that it is very similar to what I am proposing, especially the communal version. However, I have some objections on that concept.

First, while playing civ3, I didnt quite notice the effect of rank corruption at all. The problem is that it is not rigorous enough for my taste. Under a non-communal government, when building a new city such that it is the most distant from the capitol, the rank corruption does not affect existing cities, so it is allways profitable to add more cities, in contrast with my suggestion.

I played at monarch difficulty on tiny maps, and all available land was filled with cities, packed to utilize allmost every tile. If a more rigorous coruption system was employed, maybe the players would start caring about a good spot to build a city.

When under communal government, optimal city number depends on difficulty and map size, where I would like it to be independent on those two, and selected by user instead.

Also, I do not wish to penalize players for being good at building cities. I want to give players more choice, so that they can select what they like most. Players should be able to choose a very small b, perhaps even b=0 for those who like big empires.

It is a pity that in civ4 corruption will be abandoned. I hope that they will add some substitute mechanizam that will be able to seriously limit size of empires, at players choice.
 
Like Trip said, why not just play on smaller maps?
 
Personally I like corruption, if tied to distance of capital and not by number of cities because is more realistic. Of course it could be minimize by roads, RR, harbours, airports, units, some improvements and with big maps and many civs by capital provinces. So it's a petty if it disapear instead of be improved.
The thing is there are many kind of players (big/small maps, many/few civs per game).
And the time between each turn in late game is very annoyed.
 
warpstorm said:
Like Trip said, why not just play on smaller maps?

Because, as I explained, even on tiny maps there are too much cities for my taste, covering allmost every tile. I end up with 30+ cities near the end of the game.

And also, I would like to play on big maps, because I like to explore and pick nice sites for cities. But, in the same time, I also want to play only with a few cities, lets say about 7, thats the amount I can easily manage by hand.
 
7 cities is about what I normally get on a Tiny map unless you're playing a 1v1 or try to conquer the world. ;)
 
They're getting rid of corruption, although your heart is in the right place.

Reality is that mastering the settler-expansion-mongol strategy (whatever word you use to call it) is the key to mastering the game. Not that they should throw that completely out the window, but there should be alternative strategies to winning, and more challenge to being a "mongol" (expansionist-militarist gameplay). The game is too heavily determined by early game strategy, as well.

(Perhaps they can draw some inspiration from the fact that the mongol empire ultimately lasted a century and a bit.)
 
I understand where you are coming from (mg2plus) in terms of cities - I must admit to being surprised that you are only looking at 7 or so cities! My philosophy for Civ2 - I am still trying to adjust it to Civ3! - is basically, build cities like crazy, and get to Democracy as soon as possible. Currently, even if I build a courthouse, I still get so much corruption in a city I only get 1 shield per turn, if my city is too far away from my capital - or am I missing a trick here folks? I love a huge world to explore, much as you, I just accept that every turn, I have to go round EVERY city and check their status (I normally name them depending on their location for easy refernce - a bit boring I know, but it works for me!)
 
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