Sun Tzu's Art of War: The Real Book

[ssmith619]

Is it worth getting? I've read parts of it online, and about 30% of it seems relevant to Civilization III (a lot of it is about crossing rivers, feeding your army, etc.). I've found a good copy cheap, however. Well, anyway, I'm not the warring type and am in fact a pretty sh*tty general. Will this help at all? If not in Civilization, is it an interesting read? I guess this isn't the best place to get a book reccomendation, hehehe, but I'll give it a shot. Hm...I've never posted a poll, I think I'll do that, too. Hehehe.

 

[kb2tvl]

notions of using the enemy to support your army and having an army that is rushed to battle are both good concepts. Other concepts of allowing your generals command your army instead of the gov't leader is also a nice concept but does not apply to civ 3...

 

[KDan]

Most of it does not apply to civ 3 as the game is far, far, far too limited and unrealistic. 95% of war is psychology, and getting the enemy to believe that they're going to lose. I guess more of it would apply if you were playing a human player (so wait for PtW!!), but against a computer it is totally moot.

On the other hand, a lot of both Sun Tzu's Art of War and "The 36 Stratagems" (get a good edition of that from a real bookshop though so you can see that there are enough comments explaining the stratagems and illustrating them) apply to many situations in real life, so they are definitely worthwhile reads.

Daniel

 

[Hades]

I have read Sun Tzu's Art of War and 36 Tactics. Both are good for everyday life but 36 Tactics is better for CIV. You don't need to buy Sun Tzu's because the online version should contain the entire content. It is a very short book, if you put everything togather, it wouldn't even need 30 pages. Not sure were you can find 36 tactics... to me they are more like 36 dirty tricks, I read the original Chinese text but have never seen an english translation.

 

[jpowers]

It's very good advice, but if you think about it a little bit, it's a lot of common sense that for some reason seems to get thrown out the window as soon as a 'serious' situation is at hand. Basically, it's a reminder to stay focused and trust your instinct.

 

[KDan]

Hades - I haven't found an English version either, but surely there must be some. I read mine in French.

Daniel

 

[Zachriel]

Sun Tzu is must read material.

The Art of War
http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html

1. Sun Tzu said: The art of war is of vital importance to the State.

2. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected.

 

[Hades]

When I come to think of it, there isn't much to translate: In "36 tricks" each trick has only 4 words or less. If you translate them to plain english, many of them would tend to make people laugh.... such as "kill a chicken, scare the monkeys", "throw the stones at people who trapped in a well", or "pointing at the bush and yelling at a rock"

A professional is needed to explain what that is all about, same for Sun Tzu's.

 

[Zachriel]

The author of "36 Strategies" is unknown.

Strategy 1 - Deceive the sky to cross the ocean.
Strategy 2 - Surround Wei to rescue Zhao.
Strategy 3 - Borrow another's hand to kill.
Strategy 4 - Make your enemy work while you wait at leisure.
Strategy 5 - Use the opportunity of fire to rob others.
Strategy 6 - Display in the east and attack in the west.
Strategy 7 - Create something from nothing.
Strategy 8 - Secretly utilize the Chen Chang passage.
Strategy 9 - Watch the fires burning across the river.
Strategy 10 - Knife hidden under the smiling face.
Strategy 11 - Plum tree sacrifices for the peach tree.
Strategy 12 - Walk the sheep home, just because it is there.
Strategy 13 - Disturb the snake by hitting the grass.
Strategy 14 - Borrow another's body to return the soul.
Strategy 15 - Entice the tiger to leave the mountain.
Strategy 16 - In order to capture, one must let loose.
Strategy 17 - Bait a piece of jade with a brick.
Strategy 18 - Defeat the enemy by capturing their chief.
Strategy 19 - Remove the firewood under the cooking pot.
Strategy 20 - Fish in troubled waters.
Strategy 21 - Slough off the cicada's shell.
Strategy 22 - Shut the door to catch the thief.
Strategy 23 - Befriend a distant state while attacking a neighbor.
Strategy 24 - Obtain safe passage to conquer the Kingdom of Guo.
Strategy 25 - Replace the beams and pillars with rotten timber.
Strategy 26 - Point at the mulberry and curse the locust.
Strategy 27 - Pretend to be a pig in order to eat the tiger. (Play dumb.)
Strategy 28 - Cross the river and destroy the bridge.
Strategy 29 - Deck the tree with bogus blossoms.
Strategy 30 - Make the host and the quest exchange places.
Strategy 31 - The beauty trap.
Strategy 32 - Empty city.
Strategy 33 - Let the enemy's own spy sow discord in the enemy camp.
Strategy 34 - Inflict injury on one's self to win the enemy's trust.
Strategy 35 - Chain together the enemy's ships.
Strategy 36 - Run away to fight another day.

 

[Daaraa]

I think it is a good read. Some of it could apply to civ3. But not much. As said above, a lot of it is common sense if you think about it.

 

[Rosicrucian]

You should read B.H. Liddel Hart's Strategy. It is a great book about strategy throughout history, and very relevant to Civ III. I expect it will be even more relevant in multi player. It talks mostly about strategy and very little about tactics, which makes it more applicable to computer gaming. The theme throughout the entire book is, "dislocate" the enemy, by cutting him off, getting his attention, making him move where he doesn't want to go, etc.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Rosicrucian
The theme throughout the entire book is, "dislocate" the enemy, by cutting him off, getting his attention, making him move where he doesn't want to go, etc.

Sun Tzu I, 24
Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.

 

[MirandaCore]

I always use strats 3-5, 10, 23, and 27 in civ III games. I do the same things in Risk games: and have found out that humans aren't all that more intelligent compared to the AI.

 

[Snaproll]

As a military officer, I have had to read this book more than once! Unfortunately, in modern war, lots of these principles are marginalized by politics...

 

[KDan]

MirandaCore: The cool thing about humans is you can actually use a LOT more of those tricks on them

Humans are much more susceptible to mind tricks (which 3/4 of those are) than dumb AIs...

I expect that the 36 Stratagems will be incredibly useful when it comes to multiplayer civ3. Most of them apply directly and immediately.

#2 applies even against the AI (attack a weaker spot to draw the enemy attacking forces from their own attack on you and save your towns)

Anyway, yeah, those are way better when in a book with commentaries and examples from the author/translator...

Daniel

 

[Rosicrucian]

Originally posted by Zachriel


Sun Tzu I, 24
Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.

Yeah. It echoes a lot of the wisdom of Sun Tzu's, and adds some I don't recall reading about when I read The Art of War. It describes in incredible historical detail exactly how the dislocations are executed. I've read both The Art of War and Liddel Hart's Strategy, they aren't the same thing at all.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by charliehoke
As a military officer, I have had to read this book more than once! Unfortunately, in modern war, lots of these principles are marginalized by politics...

VII, 1
Sun Tzu said: In war, the general receives his commands from the sovereign.

In modern society, the sovereign is the people through their elected leaders. They may seem irrational at times, but then again, so were many kings.

 

[Snaproll]

Originally posted by Zachriel


VII, 1
Sun Tzu said: In war, the general receives his commands from the sovereign.

In modern society, the sovereign is the people through their elected leaders. They may seem irrational at times, but then again, so were many kings.

Of course, the best part about civ3 is that the political and military objectives are always the same!

 

[Dark Sheer]

Originally posted by Zachriel
The author of "36 Strategies" is unknown.

Strategy 1 - Deceive the sky to cross the ocean.
Strategy 2 - Surround Wei to rescue Zhao.
Strategy 3 - Borrow another's hand to kill.
Strategy 4 - Make your enemy work while you wait at leisure.
Strategy 5 - Use the opportunity of fire to rob others.
Strategy 6 - Display in the east and attack in the west.
Strategy 7 - Create something from nothing.
Strategy 8 - Secretly utilize the Chen Chang passage.
Strategy 9 - Watch the fires burning across the river.
Strategy 10 - Knife hidden under the smiling face.
Strategy 11 - Plum tree sacrifices for the peach tree.
Strategy 12 - Walk the sheep home, just because it is there.
Strategy 13 - Disturb the snake by hitting the grass.
Strategy 14 - Borrow another's body to return the soul.
Strategy 15 - Entice the tiger to leave the mountain.
Strategy 16 - In order to capture, one must let loose.
Strategy 17 - Bait a piece of jade with a brick.
Strategy 18 - Defeat the enemy by capturing their chief.
Strategy 19 - Remove the firewood under the cooking pot.
Strategy 20 - Fish in troubled waters.
Strategy 21 - Slough off the cicada's shell.
Strategy 22 - Shut the door to catch the thief.
Strategy 23 - Befriend a distant state while attacking a neighbor.
Strategy 24 - Obtain safe passage to conquer the Kingdom of Guo.
Strategy 25 - Replace the beams and pillars with rotten timber.
Strategy 26 - Point at the mulberry and curse the locust.
Strategy 27 - Pretend to be a pig in order to eat the tiger. (Play dumb.)
Strategy 28 - Cross the river and destroy the bridge.
Strategy 29 - Deck the tree with bogus blossoms.
Strategy 30 - Make the host and the quest exchange places.
Strategy 31 - The beauty trap.
Strategy 32 - Empty city.
Strategy 33 - Let the enemy's own spy sow discord in the enemy camp.
Strategy 34 - Inflict injury on one's self to win the enemy's trust.
Strategy 35 - Chain together the enemy's ships.
Strategy 36 - Run away to fight another day.

Actually all if not most are related to how the strategy was used the first time. From then on it was passed down as a great strategy. So, technically there is no real author per say. Some of them relate way back to the warring states (1100BC-400BC) and some during Three Kingdom (around 220BC). An example would be no. 2:

An army is marching towards Zhao (one of the 7 states during the warring states period) and the ally of Zhao is unable to send their army in time to reach Zhao. However, they can send their army to Wei, an ally of the attacker. Therefore, the attack is forced to divert their army to save Wei and Zhao is thus saved in the process. (I am sure this can be applied well in Civ3.)

Of course some of them sounds stupid if you just translate them directly. Even if one tries to read it, it can sometimes be hard to understand unless you like the ancient history of China.

 

[Hades]

Actually the strategies vary from book to book too (like greek mythodology) and i think all of them were developed by Han dynasty.

By the way, the Three Kingdom was around 220AD not BC.