suomipeli

[sampsa]

Everything went as expected. Except that our capital has so many hammers that it churned out 3 warriors.

We can see Mansa's borders in the east. Met Hatty T14. Ez neighbors. There is corn north of the floodplain-area and I'd suggest that we plant our 2nd city there. I was probably wrong about the snaky pangaea -type of map. No indication that either Mansa or Hatty has met someone else.

Save is paused (use the pause key). I always pause my games but I can stop doing it if it annoys you.

 

[sampsa]

I don't think aesth is a good oracle tech. It's as cheap as alpha and the wonders it gives are mostly good for just failgold, at least Schwedagon and Zeus-statue. Though we will have ivory, marble and gold to use for failgolding.

Early currency could be nice. CoL isn't so good to Sumeria thanks to our UB.

Well, alpha is not a bad oracle tech either imo... Aesth is certainly not the most typical choice, but with marble it's reasonable in my opinion. It does speed up the wonders a lot and you are pretty much guaranteed to get everything you please. If you browse the forums a bit more you can find some games where strong players built early Schwedagon for pacifism/free religion, both pretty strong civics under the right circumstances. I wouldn't Oracle aesth on emperor and try to get failgold... The only reason would be to get GLib very quickly to speed up liberalism. But we can talk about this later.

 

[sampsa]

I think we should discuss the grand strategy a bit. Regardless of if we meet other civs pre-optics, it will be beneficial to attack our neighbors at some point. I put espionage on Mansa, but we might want to switch to Hatty if we want to attack Mansa @construction. We shouldn't kill him off completely, as then we need a way to get Hatty to friendly for tech trades.

Anyway, I'm liking the idea of Oracle -> currency. Seraiel (whose posts you should be reading pretty closely if you are interested in optimal play) posted this idea to another thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12686367&postcount=14

We won't get a ton of techs from trade since we only met two civs though, but Mysticism + Meditation + BW should be 100%.

So my suggested techpath is writing-alpha.

Btw, I think we should have started a settler already at size 2. Now our hammers are put into warriors that we don't really need (or from now on to a granary that we won't need for a long time). We really really should have taken more time instead of rushing forward. Believe me, OtsoMaki, there are things you can think about in the first 20-30 turns. Also my bad for not realizing it while playing. It's still not too late to start a settler @2 but it's no longer optimal of course.

 

[OtsoMaki]

Using Oracle to get Currency seems reasonable. Because I am not that experienced with the Oracle, you can make the plan and I will agree to it. For the oracle we also need that Marble which means we have to tech Mining->Masonry at some point. Or do you intend to build/chop it without bonuses which might actually be faster since quarry take 6 turns to build and we also need roads.

Overall in the tech path after the Oracle I am interested in going the Aest tech path for GLib since we have marble. However does not work well with the Elepult war mentioned that requires both Construction and HBR and our fairly low start. If we want to fight Mansa early with Elepult, then Aest must wait.

We have way too many compared to . At size 2 we have 7 I think. Since this has translated into excess warriors (do we have 4 warriors now?), we should probably use two of them to fogbust the southern lands. Also, because Mansa is so close we should not have major problems with Barbs in this game if we do our fogbusting right.

Settler at size 2 is probably better than at size 4 with our current and situation. It will take ages to grow to size 4 (looks like 6 turns to size 3 from the screenshot) and I don't want us to lose the corn and floodplains in the east to Mansa.

Third city should most likely be the the gold/fish/jumbos which requires fishing.

 

[Robert FIN]

Good morning, crew! I was wondering that who's turn it is to play next? My thoughts: the Most important techs are BW, Priesthood, (Oracle Currency), (IW if no copper). We are very lucky towards the neighborhood; Mansa is good techer but nice weakling as rush target. Hatshepsut is bad in military too, but not even superior techwise if I remember. She just goes all culture which is acceptable. I vote for Mansa MUSA to be the vulture rush target. Thoughts?

 

[Robert FIN]

Oh, I missed that you were planning a construction rush w/ elepults. Its fine for me too.

 

[sinimusta]

The playing order is in the first page and I intended that we play in the same order so that we don't have to wonder every time whose turn is it. If sampsa's turnset is over, it's your turn Rob. Just make some kind of pre-play-plan.

I wonder if we should grow to size 3 beofre settler to get at least the first cottage growing, since commerce is one of our main issues.

Seraiels idea about oracling could work here too, minimizes the risk quite effectively.

Since I wanted to get this game started, I started the game before waiting for every person I asked to respond. Would you accept more players to jump in the middle of this?

 

[Robert FIN]

The playing order is in the first page and I intended that we play in the same order so that we don't have to wonder every time whose turn is it. If sampsa's turnset is over, it's your turn Rob. Just make some kind of pre-play-plan.

I wonder if we should grow to size 3 beofre settler to get at least the first cottage growing, since commerce is one of our main issues.

Seraiels idea about oracling could work here too, minimizes the risk quite effectively.

Since I wanted to get this game started, I started the game before waiting for every person I asked to respond. Would you accept more players to jump in the middle of this?

OK, I'll play about 15 turns TODAY. And I'm very happy if here will be more fins playing this, just say them that they're welcome!

 

[Robert FIN]

I'll follow Seraiel's plan and go aggressively for Alpha and trade it for Priesthood and the junk. You told me that you want settler out in 3pop but where shall he settle? After this, I quess I have a plan for post-afternoon.

 

[OtsoMaki]

The playing order is in the first page and I intended that we play in the same order so that we don't have to wonder every time whose turn is it. If sampsa's turnset is over, it's your turn Rob. Just make some kind of pre-play-plan.

I wonder if we should grow to size 3 beofre settler to get at least the first cottage growing, since commerce is one of our main issues.

Seraiels idea about oracling could work here too, minimizes the risk quite effectively.

Since I wanted to get this game started, I started the game before waiting for every person I asked to respond. Would you accept more players to jump in the middle of this?

If we want to grow to size 3 before building a Settler, what should we build during the turns before the growth? Granary perhaps? We do not need more warriors and granary would be a welcome boost since we can build it quickly and it will shave lots of turns from future growth. With low the amount of turns saved by the granary is much more than with high since the growth takes longer.

IMHO if there are more players interested, they can join.

I'll follow Seraiel's plan and go aggressively for Alpha and trade it for Priesthood and the junk. You told me that you want settler out in 3pop but where shall he settle? After this, I quess I have a plan for post-afternoon.

I mentioned earlier settling towards Mansa. There are two floodplains and Corn to that direction and it seems no one will contest us for the lands west and south of Uruk. I have not looked at save file from sampsa so I cannot recommend and exact location yet. I have access to a CIV computer after 16:00 today and before that I cannot say anything exact about the land.

We should probably also decide on the amount of turns each player should play. Should it be an exact amount (10/15?) or should there be some leeway (10-20?).

 

[sinimusta]

To keep things simple we could agree on an exact number of turns. 15 might be good.

Edit: Now that I think about it, some leeway would be better. That way player could stop when he sees some kind of decision like surprise attack or finishing a tech. About 10-20 truns would be fine.

 

[Robert FIN]

T23-37

Spoiler :

Teched Pottery and started to tech Writing as you demanded:


Uruk starts to build Granary before settler.


One of our warriors got ambushed by lion here, rest in peace:


Sotamarsalkka Sandels got promoted to woodsman!


Mansa is buddhist btw!


Uruk made its way to pop 4 before granary was ready:


Finished Writing, next we'll take Alphabet:



Opened borders with both AIs so we can sneak their lands.



Hatty's Cap:


Uruk:


News are telling us that both AI leaders did build their 2nd cities b4 us:


Map:


Any thoughts?

Save:

 

[sampsa]

Using Oracle to get Currency seems reasonable. Because I am not that experienced with the Oracle, you can make the plan and I will agree to it. For the oracle we also need that Marble which means we have to tech Mining->Masonry at some point. Or do you intend to build/chop it without bonuses which might actually be faster since quarry take 6 turns to build and we also need roads.

Without marble. Usually masonry just slows down the Oracle date. However, if we get it from trade masonry is an option.

Overall in the tech path after the Oracle I am interested in going the Aest tech path for GLib since we have marble. However does not work well with the Elepult war mentioned that requires both Construction and HBR and our fairly low start. If we want to fight Mansa early with Elepult, then Aest must wait.

Agreed. No need to decide it just yet of course.

We have way too many compared to . At size 2 we have 7 I think. Since this has translated into excess warriors (do we have 4 warriors now?), we should probably use two of them to fogbust the southern lands. Also, because Mansa is so close we should not have major problems with Barbs in this game if we do our fogbusting right.

Yes, fogbusting the south is possible, but not necessary in any way. Maybe fogbusting the gold/fish area is most important.

Settler at size 2 is probably better than at size 4 with our current and situation. It will take ages to grow to size 4 (looks like 6 turns to size 3 from the screenshot) and I don't want us to lose the corn and floodplains in the east to Mansa.

Screenshot is not from the final turn. We are half-way to size three, so I think we should grow to 3.

Third city should most likely be the the gold/fish/jumbos which requires fishing.

Sounds like you agree with my suggested 2nd city...

I wonder if we should grow to size 3 beofre settler to get at least the first cottage growing, since commerce is one of our main issues.

Agree on growing to 3.

Seraiels idea about oracling could work here too, minimizes the risk quite effectively.

I have never done oracle->currency without a math bulb, so no experience on it, but it sounds reasonably easy to pull off.

Since I wanted to get this game started, I started the game before waiting for every person I asked to respond. Would you accept more players to jump in the middle of this?

Yes.

Good morning, crew! I was wondering that who's turn it is to play next? My thoughts: the Most important techs are BW, Priesthood, (Oracle Currency), (IW if no copper). We are very lucky towards the neighborhood; Mansa is good techer but nice weakling as rush target. Hatshepsut is bad in military too, but not even superior techwise if I remember. She just goes all culture which is acceptable. I vote for Mansa MUSA to be the vulture rush target. Thoughts?

On rushing, I think that axe-based rushes are almost always bad. Only if your first city has copper you should be trying that. Here it's also diplomatically very awkward - it's bad to share an island with 1 AI rather than 2 AIs, because the former makes tech trading very difficult.

 

[sampsa]

Any thoughts?

Yes... There were some things to be discussed before playing, like the capital build and whether to build settler @3 or @4... You posted no plan before playing.

 

[OtsoMaki]

Without marble. Usually masonry just slows down the Oracle date. However, if we get it from trade masonry is an option.

Ok. This was pretty much what I thought.

Yes, fogbusting the south is possible, but not necessary in any way. Maybe fogbusting the gold/fish area is most important.

Yes fogbusting the gold/fish would be more important since we will settle there earlier.

Screenshot is not from the final turn. We are half-way to size three, so I think we should grow to 3.

Ok.

Sounds like you agree with my suggested 2nd city...

Yes. We should settle towards Mansa. The gold/fish/jumbos is not a feasible 2nd city since we lack all the techs required for those tiles.

On rushing, I think that axe-based rushes are almost always bad. Only if your first city has copper you should be trying that. Here it's also diplomatically very awkward - it's bad to share an island with 1 AI rather than 2 AIs, because the former makes tech trading very difficult.

Agree with this. I did axe rush in recent Emperors' Club game with Hannibal and was left with JC for most of the game. Thank god the AIs on the other continents sucked big time in teching since I was able to get about 5 trades during the whole game from him.

 

[sampsa]

@Robert_FIN: OK, we are not going to lose this game because of your turn-set. 2nd city is delayed a bit which costs us a bit of and and the granary in the capital will be useful later. Note how a connected 2nd city wins you so you should try to build it asap.

Scouting looks good, too bad about one lost warrior.

 

[OtsoMaki]

I was going to take a look at sampsa's save and post my thoughts but since Robert played already, I will skip that and take a look at his save.

1. Fogbusting.
The fish/gold city spot is secure with current borders and we could probably fogbust barbs coming from the south with just 1 warrior with the help of Mansa's scout. Shame about the warrior losing to panther that had only 30 % odds. The 2 warriors should scout Hatty and Mansa.

2. Growth.
I think size 4 was a mistake and we should have started settler at size 3. The turns before size 3 should have been but into a granary without completing it. Agree with the city spot marked. Corn is also dry .

3. Worker actions.
Why is the worker going to the sheep tile? It should be building a road to our second city spot or cottaging a flood plains for the second city to work from the start. Connecting health resources isn't that important at the start since cities are small and forests plentiful. building roads to new cities brings the extra commerce from trade routes which is much more important.

4. Something about the AIs.
Hatty is surrounded by forests and her Capitol looks quite bad. She is also blocked from settling south by the jungle. She might try to settle the coastal areas with forests. If she does this, she we should not lose the spices/jumbos/seafood city spot N of our proposed second city spot.

Mansa found Buddhism so we have a religion nearby which is a good thing IMHO. He also must have had something really good thing next to his second city which is mysteriously next to a desert.

Edit: Hopefully my writing style does not make look like that I am overly critical of you game.

 

[Robert FIN]

@Robert_FIN: OK, we are not going to lose this game because of your turn-set. 2nd city is delayed a bit which costs us a bit of and and the granary in the capital will be useful later. Note how a connected 2nd city wins you so you should try to build it asap.

Scouting looks good, too bad about one lost warrior.

Well, you are right about that I should've discussed more, but I'm not an idiot, I remember that someone told us that granary would be better than warriors before building settler. I agreed to that. 2 players did agree- at least. It just happened that our capitol grew up to 4pop while building a granary. Well, I hope that someone can clean the mess ! I told ya that I'm a noob !

 

[sampsa]

Well, you are right about that I should've discussed more, but I'm not an idiot, I remember that someone told us that granary would be better than warriors before building settler. I agreed to that. 2 players did agree- at least. It just happened that our capitol grew up to 4pop while building a granary. Well, I hope that someone can clean the mess ! I told ya that I'm a noob !

This is what I said about the granary:

Now our hammers are put into warriors that we don't really need (or from now on to a granary that we won't need for a long time).

I didn't say that we should finish the granary. Just to put hammers into it while we grow to the size we want. It didn't just happen that capital grew to size 4, you had the power to start building a settler at any point.

I know that you are the noob within this crew, so don't worry. You will learn a lot from this game.

 

[sampsa]

1. Fogbusting.
The fish/gold city spot is secure with current borders and we could probably fogbust barbs coming from the south with just 1 warrior with the help of Mansa's scout. Shame about the warrior losing to panther that had only 30 % odds. The 2 warriors should scout Hatty and Mansa.

This brings me to an idea we kind of forgot to discuss. Worker stealing. 60 free at this point for a diplo hit vs a civ we are going to kill anyway is a good deal.

2. Growth.
I think size 4 was a mistake and we should have started settler at size 3. The turns before size 3 should have been but into a granary without completing it. Agree with the city spot marked. Corn is also dry .

The role of this 2nd city should be to grow to size 4 to work corn+cottages and then pump settlers(/workers). Hammers come from capital.

3. Worker actions.
Why is the worker going to the sheep tile? It should be building a road to our second city spot or cottaging a flood plains for the second city to work from the start. Connecting health resources isn't that important at the start since cities are small and forests plentiful. building roads to new cities brings the extra commerce from trade routes which is much more important.

Worker should road 1E of capital so that 2nd city is founded 1 turn earlier. Other roads are less important. Road to Mansa for trade routes + religion spread? Need to see how timing works with the founding of 2nd city.

4. Something about the AIs.
Hatty is surrounded by forests and her Capitol looks quite bad. She is also blocked from settling south by the jungle. She might try to settle the coastal areas with forests. If she does this, she we should not lose the spices/jumbos/seafood city spot N of our proposed second city spot.

It's unlikely that we will lose that spot I guess.

I'd like everyone to take a look at this game, as it reminds our situation a lot (creative civ, 2 AIs on the same conti, alpha beeline). From say page 24 onwards.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=475482&page=24