Tech Trading Help Please

[kancit5667]

Hey, lurker here who has learned a lot from the boards. You guys are great.

Anyway, I'm trying to move up to Monarch level, but I always fall behind in tech, no matter what civ I play as. The biggest problem I seem to have is that the AI will almost never trade me techs that are above me on the tech tree after the ancient age. They will trade me techs that are basically backfilling, but nothing really new.

Using CivAssistII I can tell that they are all trading new techs with each other because they get the same techs on the same turn available to trade, but they still won't trade it to me. In my latest game I was still in the middle ages while every other civ was well into the industrial age (horrible starting position put me WAY behind, but I stuck with it for experience). Anyway, I could research navigation, but as every other civ had it, I thought I'd try to buy it. It would seem like a fairly worthless tech, but no one would let me buy it. Civs who were bogged down in centuries-long wars and had 0 gold would not even take my entire 2867 gold treasury for it.

Another example comes from two games ago. For the entire game, I had a great trading relationship with the Iriqouis. I sold them techs and they gave me all the gold, resources, and luxuries I could ever want. Then, with their much bigger civ, they finally surpassed me in knowledge at the dawn of the modern age. Naturally, they will not under any circumstances trade me any "new" techs they discover, despite me trying to throw luxuries and gold at them and having them listed as gracious towards me.

It just seems that no matter what I do, I always end up having to do all of my own research usually sooner rather than later. Any advice? Should I even bother trading the AI techs early on, if they are just going to surpass me and refuse to deal? Thanks for reading this long-winded post and for any replies in advance.

 

[Aabraxan]

Welcome to CFC, kancit5667!

Two questions: (1) How's your reputation? Were you trying to include any per-turn items in the Navigation/2867 gold deal? (2) Can you post a save in which this has happened?

 

[vmxa]

They valued it for the Magellan wonder. Once that is built, they will part with it easier. AI to AI trade is discounted. The discount grows as you move up levels.

Well it is hard to know about trades form a brief mention. You may have suffered a rep hit for instance. The techs in modern ages are very costly. CAII will tell you at the start how much in beakers the each is worth.

That is how much it is worth in gold, It does not always reflect its value as it may have a wonder or gov or units. If you want to trade, have a tech that no one else knows.

In the main you are better off learning how to expand and get bigger than everyone, so you can do your own research. At Monarch, you should be the tech leader all the way or at least after AA.

 

[kancit5667]

It's not really worth posting the save, bad game and I know it. Starting position had nothing to recommend itself and almost no shield production. By the time I had produced one warrior and one settler, I was completely surrounded by far more powerful AI civs. There was only one place nearby to put another city and alas it had little shield production as well. Just kept going to try and learn. If I get a moe fruitful example, I'll post a save.

The AI had already built Magellan's wonder. I shouldn't have taken too big of rep hit as I had never been at war with anyone. The only thing I did was to agree to a couple of ROP's and that was just for survival's sake. So, I really can't figure out why I was persona non grata for trading.

I know that I need to get better at getting bigger quicker so that I can do all my own research without problems. Unfortunately, I'm not there yet. If I do go to war in the ancient age, I can usually win, but at the expense of falling behind techwise even earlier. I'm working at that as well on Monarch level. It's something I can easily do on Regent and below, but I'm trying to learn at this level.

 

[vmxa]

First test your rep. Offer them something like 10gpt for 1 gold. If they do not take that you have lost your rep and cannot make any further gpt deals.

On Regent and a std map size Nav cost 1344. So you would have to make an offer that covered that, less how ever much it had depreciated. So what did you offer them exactly and how many nations already knew Nav?

 

[kancit5667]

Can't test my rep right now, but I'll take a look at that tonight. But, how would my rep take a hit if I've never backed out of a deal or been at war. Would I get that big of rep hit just for dealing with their enemies? That's the only thing I can think of that I've done. I haven't even complained when their armies go trapezing across my territory to such an extent that their wars are actually being fought primarily on my land. I cave into whatever their demands are. Maybe that's my mistake? I usually don't on regent and below, but in this save, I would last less than 5 turns if someone declared war on me.

I made all kinds of offers just to see if they would take something, anything. The biggest offer was 2867 gold in a lump sum. No takers.

It is a standard size map, max civs. One civ has been elimimated. Everyone else has navigation.

 

[Aabraxan]

Being at war, in & of itself, won't damage your reputation. Breaking a deal will. Sometimes, though, your rep can get trashed through no fault of your own. For example if you were trading per turn goods overseas, a barb galley might park on your trade route. By the same token, if you were trading through someone else's land and the trade route got cut by a war, that will trash your rep, too.

 

[vmxa]

Not sure how much a factor Magellan's is in the equation. Considering that 6 nations know Nav and you may have put some research in yourself, it should go for less than 1000.

If you did not offer any gpt, then your rep will not matter. Well no lux either or resource. IOW just things they get immediately, like lump sum and tech. So if that is the case, then it is the wonder that is causing them to not deal.

As Aabrazan said, you can take a rep hit through a number of things out side of your control. It is not wise to trade 20 turn deals overseas, if you do not have ocean travel, as an accidental blockage break the route.

 

[Aabraxan]

. . . . The AI had already built Magellan's wonder. . . . .

I also don't think this plays a big role. (As always, someone correct me if I'm wrong.) From what I can tell, the AI doesn't really care if the Wonder associated with a tech has been built. It only seems to care if the tech at issue allows a Wonder. I haven't tested this, but I cannot recall ever seeing the price of a tech noticeably drop on the turn after a Wonder is completed.

 

[vmxa]

I think that it does have an impact. If the wonder was built, then they should be willing to trade it. My question would be what was the response to the option of what would you take for Nav? Did they say it can't be done?

 

[TimBentley]

I would have expected the price for navigation to be close to 2/3(optional tech)*1493(estimate of monarch tech cost, don't have civ on this computer)+13(ocean trade)=1008, higher if they are aggressive or have a bad attitude (or there may be other factors I haven't tested). The +10 for wonder would not be added since it's already built. (I got these numbers from http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5063999&postcount=16)

 

[Aabraxan]

Well, I guess I was wrong on that one. Thanks.

 

[rysingsun]

i trade techs to backfill. I rarely trade for something to the right on the tech tree of where i already am, since it seems to be always cheaper to research it than to trade for it and obviously i can't buy it with another similar tech.

regarding modern age techs they are very expensive (30000 or thereabouts?). Often espionage is the way to go here.

 

[Sweetchuck]

Yeah, if you're not playing at an insane difficulty - tech trading is generally of less value than researching IMO.

The only time the AI ever approaches me for a tech trade is when I am 1 turn away from researching it.