The ethics of milking
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MadScot
Brandy's back!
I think I mentioned elsewhere that I don't like it, but if people want to do it fair enough. I am more impressed by the early finishjes than the high scores, personally.
It is to me as if a chess GM were to refuse to accept an opponent's resignation, playing on because there was an elegant mate 10 or 20 moves down the line, or because he wanted to queen all his pawns, or put all his pieces back on their start squares, or some such nonsense.
Just because the AI is too stupid to resign, there's no need to torture it. Well, OK maybe I can see the enjoyment there...
You've WON! Play another game already.
But like I said, if the micromanagement of hundreds of years of tedium appeals to people...
It is to me as if a chess GM were to refuse to accept an opponent's resignation, playing on because there was an elegant mate 10 or 20 moves down the line, or because he wanted to queen all his pawns, or put all his pieces back on their start squares, or some such nonsense.
Just because the AI is too stupid to resign, there's no need to torture it. Well, OK maybe I can see the enjoyment there...
You've WON! Play another game already.
But like I said, if the micromanagement of hundreds of years of tedium appeals to people...
MadScot
Brandy's back!
Zachriel
For consistency, should it not be the Inca Water torture?
For consistency, should it not be the Inca Water torture?
GenMarshall
High Elven ISB Capt & Ghost Agent
I have been hearing about "Milking the Score". How does one Milk the Score? :s
GenMarshall
High Elven ISB Capt & Ghost Agent
I have just read SirPleb's on "The Ethics of Milking". I can say I can understand on how to Milk a Score to its maxumum potential. I would agree on the part that it is tedious but IMO the effort will pay off with a higer score. Hopefully SirPleb's article will help me in future GOTM and also some solo games.
Although the score rules has been redone since the last time I was here. I just hope that "The Ethics of Milking" would help.
Although the score rules has been redone since the last time I was here. I just hope that "The Ethics of Milking" would help.
Well... there have been more or less heated posts on the subject. I do not consider myself experienced enough with Civ3, nor old enough in this forum, to even try to enter any specific discussion.
This is to say that I have no intention of offending anyone, and if any indirect insult may appear in this post, please blame my poor knowledge of English for it.
I would only like to make a general comment in recalling that we are all talking about a game. We play this game because we like it, and we play it the way that we find the most pleasing, be it milking, fast conquest, high-scoring loss, or even cheating.
In this respect, I think it is so much a matter of personal taste that any discussion is merely an exchange of opinions, and any comment on someone else's playing stile is totally pointless.
That's it. I never milked a game myself, and I am going to try it sooner or later. If I find it interesting, I will do that again, otherwise not. It is much the same as, say, an OCC game. I'll play it if and when I like it. Anyone telling me that it's tedious, pointless, boring or whatever will obtain the same effect as if he told me I shouldn't eat marzipan sweets because he doesn't like them...
The point of the GOTM, in my understanding, is just to add something to a game we already enjoy, to allow players to meet and exchange ideas and compare results.
To this purpose, there is an -admittedly debatable- set of rules, just like in any game, to which we all should adhere in order to make this "game-on-the-game" more enjoyable for everyone. This is the only difference from the "lone play" experience, with the consequence that "cheating" should be abstained from for the benefit of the new game.
I'm not going to enter now into a discussion of the soundness of the GOTM rules: I take them as they are, finding that (at least for the time being) they do not detract by any means from my playing experience. There may or may not be improvements and modifications, and these will come as the result of hopefully informed decisions of the moderators based on the largest possible consensus among players. Whatever: I will keep on playing as long as I find the game to be fun, the rules being in this case an important part of the game itself.
In this respect, I believe the same concept applies as I expressed at the beginning of this post: any playing style is legitimate -except, of course, cheating.
At least to me, great part of the fun of this[\i] game, that is the Civ3-based GOTM, is the variety: of people, of playing styles, of reactions to wins and defeats. In this sense, milking -just like any other approach- is part of the diversity, and thus part of the charm of this forum.
Having said that, I must add that comparing and discussing game styles, and their degree of legitimacy is also part of the game and of the fun -as this thread itself shows very clearly. Just keep things in an adequate perspective (and, yes, now someone start a debate on the meaning of "adequate perspective" )
This is to say that I have no intention of offending anyone, and if any indirect insult may appear in this post, please blame my poor knowledge of English for it.
I would only like to make a general comment in recalling that we are all talking about a game. We play this game because we like it, and we play it the way that we find the most pleasing, be it milking, fast conquest, high-scoring loss, or even cheating.
In this respect, I think it is so much a matter of personal taste that any discussion is merely an exchange of opinions, and any comment on someone else's playing stile is totally pointless.
That's it. I never milked a game myself, and I am going to try it sooner or later. If I find it interesting, I will do that again, otherwise not. It is much the same as, say, an OCC game. I'll play it if and when I like it. Anyone telling me that it's tedious, pointless, boring or whatever will obtain the same effect as if he told me I shouldn't eat marzipan sweets because he doesn't like them...
The point of the GOTM, in my understanding, is just to add something to a game we already enjoy, to allow players to meet and exchange ideas and compare results.
To this purpose, there is an -admittedly debatable- set of rules, just like in any game, to which we all should adhere in order to make this "game-on-the-game" more enjoyable for everyone. This is the only difference from the "lone play" experience, with the consequence that "cheating" should be abstained from for the benefit of the new game.
I'm not going to enter now into a discussion of the soundness of the GOTM rules: I take them as they are, finding that (at least for the time being) they do not detract by any means from my playing experience. There may or may not be improvements and modifications, and these will come as the result of hopefully informed decisions of the moderators based on the largest possible consensus among players. Whatever: I will keep on playing as long as I find the game to be fun, the rules being in this case an important part of the game itself.
In this respect, I believe the same concept applies as I expressed at the beginning of this post: any playing style is legitimate -except, of course, cheating.
At least to me, great part of the fun of this[\i] game, that is the Civ3-based GOTM, is the variety: of people, of playing styles, of reactions to wins and defeats. In this sense, milking -just like any other approach- is part of the diversity, and thus part of the charm of this forum.
Having said that, I must add that comparing and discussing game styles, and their degree of legitimacy is also part of the game and of the fun -as this thread itself shows very clearly. Just keep things in an adequate perspective (and, yes, now someone start a debate on the meaning of "adequate perspective"
)
Thanks, Col. I am flattered
But I swear that I did not think of that line because I wanted comlpliments...
But I swear that I did not think of that line because I wanted comlpliments...
I will add my comments as I used to be against milking but GOTM 15 will be my first historigraphic victory.
I agree with all the opinions that milking is tedious. But I also agree that careful milking is an art and Im quite curious to see how well I did in my attempt as compared to the veteran farmers. Why did I find milking to be an art?
The higher your early score is, the higher your final score is (meaning that you have to balance your early play to achieve high scores)
The earlier you reach the domination limit the higher your score will be.
The better you arrange your cities within the territory available and in the same time avoid the domination limit the higher your score will be.
The faster you research the necessary sciences, the faster your population will grow and the lower the pollution will be. This translates into higher score.
The happier you manage to keep your citizens, the higher your score will be.
I found it very tough to handle all of the above apart from being time-consuming.
I would like to break a myth that I have seen in many threads including this one. Milking is not tedious in the last 100+ turns of the game. I expected it to be so but it turned out that it was tedious the first 30 turns after I reached the domination limit. Later it was very tedious for the following 35 turns more than I would have thought. Later it is about pressing Enter until the end of the game with the occasional review of the cities.
The benefits given the current score system are not very important in my opinion. I used to score in the lower ten of the top 30 when I played my first GOTMs. My failed milking attempt in GOTM 12 (20 turns of milking and accidental domination) gave me the 15th position. I expect a top 10 rank in GOTM 15. Frankly I dont care if Im top 10 or top 25 and I believe that not more than 5 people outrank me by milking the game just as I guess I only outrank 5 people with my milking attempt.
I believe that people that just delay victory and press Enter without micromanaging are truly taking advantage of the score system. AFAIK the new scoring formula will take that into consideration and poor milking attempts will have their final score lowered compared to the score they would get without milking. This would mean that good milking attempts would still score higher that average early victories.
I agree with all the opinions that milking is tedious. But I also agree that careful milking is an art and Im quite curious to see how well I did in my attempt as compared to the veteran farmers. Why did I find milking to be an art?
The higher your early score is, the higher your final score is (meaning that you have to balance your early play to achieve high scores)
The earlier you reach the domination limit the higher your score will be.
The better you arrange your cities within the territory available and in the same time avoid the domination limit the higher your score will be.
The faster you research the necessary sciences, the faster your population will grow and the lower the pollution will be. This translates into higher score.
The happier you manage to keep your citizens, the higher your score will be.
I found it very tough to handle all of the above apart from being time-consuming.
I would like to break a myth that I have seen in many threads including this one. Milking is not tedious in the last 100+ turns of the game. I expected it to be so but it turned out that it was tedious the first 30 turns after I reached the domination limit. Later it was very tedious for the following 35 turns more than I would have thought. Later it is about pressing Enter until the end of the game with the occasional review of the cities.
The benefits given the current score system are not very important in my opinion. I used to score in the lower ten of the top 30 when I played my first GOTMs. My failed milking attempt in GOTM 12 (20 turns of milking and accidental domination) gave me the 15th position. I expect a top 10 rank in GOTM 15. Frankly I dont care if Im top 10 or top 25 and I believe that not more than 5 people outrank me by milking the game just as I guess I only outrank 5 people with my milking attempt.
I believe that people that just delay victory and press Enter without micromanaging are truly taking advantage of the score system. AFAIK the new scoring formula will take that into consideration and poor milking attempts will have their final score lowered compared to the score they would get without milking. This would mean that good milking attempts would still score higher that average early victories.
Aggie, The point that Sirian is trying to make is that there should be no straightforward winning/scoring strategies and refers to the mass upgrade as one of them.
But IMHO his point is flawed by the fact that he always sees/searches for exploits in the game. At the extreme its like saying that is a pity that everybody researches The Republic. Using that Government helps you score more so that means using it is a little exploitative.
Sirian, the players that are inexperienced cannot fully understand what do you mean because they do not know/ cannot take advantage of the straightforward situations that you despise. I think that most of the experienced players already know your point and are a little upset of you continuing playing the same song. OK, you convinced some of us to quit GOTM and join RBCiv but you know that the rest of us think differently.
Moreover I could use your own arguments to tell you that your approach is also flawed and that you too are playing a different game but I do not want this discussion to degenerate.
Hope nobody will feel offended and of course everybody is entitled to disagree with the generalization that I have just made.
But IMHO his point is flawed by the fact that he always sees/searches for exploits in the game. At the extreme its like saying that is a pity that everybody researches The Republic. Using that Government helps you score more so that means using it is a little exploitative.
Sirian, the players that are inexperienced cannot fully understand what do you mean because they do not know/ cannot take advantage of the straightforward situations that you despise. I think that most of the experienced players already know your point and are a little upset of you continuing playing the same song. OK, you convinced some of us to quit GOTM and join RBCiv but you know that the rest of us think differently.
Moreover I could use your own arguments to tell you that your approach is also flawed and that you too are playing a different game but I do not want this discussion to degenerate.
Hope nobody will feel offended and of course everybody is entitled to disagree with the generalization that I have just made.
I'd rather not go into a debate with you.
I now remember why I thought that you are playing an old song. It was only one in GOTM but it was a long one like this thread is turning into.
Also I saw your debates in the SG area and on the RBCiv site. You seem to like those debates and get into them 'although you are only exercising you free speech rights and every monkey throws stones at you for that'. Those debates touched the same gray areas of what is not OK or not fair.
I remembered that your point is that humans should not do what the AI is not programmed to do/deal with and to rephrase the Republic example I am sure that another strategy documented (if not developed) by Moonsinger, namely the "Effective use of Artillery" is in the same category with the mass upgrade.
Having said that I appreciate any suggestion that you might have.
Sirian,
I love to see how you turn things around, back and forth and in the end you make me feel guilty that I ever responded to your post.
You know I don't have anything personal with you, Moonsinger and cracker just said the same thing, and I don't think that Aeson does either so there's no need to feel excluded.
Maybe we need such a debate from time to time after all.
I love to see how you turn things around, back and forth and in the end you make me feel guilty that I ever responded to your post.
You know I don't have anything personal with you, Moonsinger and cracker just said the same thing, and I don't think that Aeson does either so there's no need to feel excluded.
Maybe we need such a debate from time to time after all.
Having witnessed the same situations in high school and even college, I can see your point Erik.
I have similar values with the exception that I want to try others approach at least once to prove myself that I am good enough even from different peoples viewpoints. That is why I milked GOTM 15 for 5th place and I tried an early culture in GOTM 16, which will probably rank in the top 5 100K culture victories.
That also why I tried arguing with the teacher for my point once and I won. Another time I vowed to turn around a teacher who reported me to the dean (for a minor mistake I might add) and at the end of the year I got an A- and a teacher who truly appreciated me.
Still 95% of the time I go by the same values and feel good about it. And in Civ3, I play for early domination with max city development and within my limited time available.
I have similar values with the exception that I want to try others approach at least once to prove myself that I am good enough even from different peoples viewpoints. That is why I milked GOTM 15 for 5th place and I tried an early culture in GOTM 16, which will probably rank in the top 5 100K culture victories.
That also why I tried arguing with the teacher for my point once and I won. Another time I vowed to turn around a teacher who reported me to the dean (for a minor mistake I might add) and at the end of the year I got an A- and a teacher who truly appreciated me.
Still 95% of the time I go by the same values and feel good about it. And in Civ3, I play for early domination with max city development and within my limited time available.
kojimanard
Warlord
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Milking is clearly not unethical. It sounds boring to me, but so what. I'm curious how the diary farmers rake up the big points. It cant be from territory, or they would win a domination victory. Is it by having so many happy citizens or by piling up the future tech? If its future tech, can the game be edited to change the value of ft? If you could do that on the GOTM, then perhaps you wouldnt need a new scoring system.
kojimanard
Warlord
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Thanks Bamspeedy,
Your explanation was very clear, and I will also read the article.
Your explanation was very clear, and I will also read the article.
kojimanard
Warlord
- Joined
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I agree with BiFrost, this thread has been very interesting. Aeson, I think you over-reacted; everyone said it was not unethical, which was Moonsingers original point. Sirian had some objections, but I dont they were intended to insult anyone who milks. I, for one, would love to be skilled enough that I could win, let alone milk, at Deity.
...then they should just go ahead and do it !
Very important though :
- nobody questions the ability of Milkers. They are without doubt amazingly skilled players.
The main point is that "milking" the game means using 'exploits' or other actions that were not intended by the programmers or are not "in the spirit of the game". Your example of nuking your own land to get more food out of it, is a good example of just using every single trick in the game to achieve best score.
I prefer to play, and admire players who, like in many SG games play with Honorable rules as set forth in Realms Beyond :
http://www.realmsbeyond.net/civ/erules.html
Reading carefully each other's argument I feel that Aeson has more a problem with the "way" (la forme) Sirian argues rather than the "content" (le fond) of what he says.
Of course Sirian can sound "condescending", that's his style, he is a writer, he wields words like weapons and he does it good so his words hurt but I still feel that he has "respect" for you Aeson (and the other GOTM stars) and that's very important.
He does not disrespect you even though you feel hurt by his words, maybe he is going a bit too far in his analogies but that's the style of those Forums, heavy discussions with strong words.
Sirian I really hope you will stay around CFC and more important include your GOTM14 scroll to the Great Library because there are a lot of people out there that agree with you, what you say here, and are eagerly waiting for your story !
GOTM can not cater to all, it might cater to the most, but not to all but that's better we NEED diversity, we NEED different points of view, different ways of playing the game, that's what makes Civ3 so special, so varied, such a rich game, you can play it many ways. Just like Democracy, let's not try to have everyone with the same opinion, let's keep the difference alive.
Most of all, let's not get angry, or disappointed at each other because we each believe our way of playing the game is better.
This whole thread is really good because each person can form an opinion as to what they think of milking, civing and gaming in general, both views have been expressed, and that is the whole point of a good thread because everyone knows Aeson is NOT going to convince Sirian and I vice versa, so let's not have anyone take it personally OK ?
Of course Sirian can sound "condescending", that's his style, he is a writer, he wields words like weapons and he does it good so his words hurt but I still feel that he has "respect" for you Aeson (and the other GOTM stars) and that's very important.
He does not disrespect you even though you feel hurt by his words, maybe he is going a bit too far in his analogies but that's the style of those Forums, heavy discussions with strong words.
Sirian I really hope you will stay around CFC and more important include your GOTM14 scroll to the Great Library because there are a lot of people out there that agree with you, what you say here, and are eagerly waiting for your story !
GOTM can not cater to all, it might cater to the most, but not to all but that's better we NEED diversity, we NEED different points of view, different ways of playing the game, that's what makes Civ3 so special, so varied, such a rich game, you can play it many ways. Just like Democracy, let's not try to have everyone with the same opinion, let's keep the difference alive.
Most of all, let's not get angry, or disappointed at each other because we each believe our way of playing the game is better.
This whole thread is really good because each person can form an opinion as to what they think of milking, civing and gaming in general, both views have been expressed, and that is the whole point of a good thread because everyone knows Aeson is NOT going to convince Sirian and I vice versa, so let's not have anyone take it personally OK ?
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