The Maya: Currency vs Theology?

[thelesserevil]

When playing the Maya, I typically go right for Theology because of a) the UA and b) the fact that I like playing them as both a Scienctific *and* Religious civilization. With Stonehenge and Temples along the way (not to mention the National College), it just feels like a proper strategy to me. Especially when luxuries that require the Calendar generally seem intent on smothering me.

However, I just got tossed here:

Spoiler :

And while I do want those luxuries soon, just as I want all of the pretty Science/Faith buildings, that is a city I think I'd want Petra in as well. However, on this difficulty level (King), I highly doubt I'll be able to rush to Theology as I usually do (Pottery > Writing > Great Library > Calendar > Philosophy > Oracle > Drama & Poetry > Theology) AND still manage to get Petra as well. That, and I doubt in general that I'd manage to get the GL to rush things along since all the other Civs start off with Pottery.

Any thoughts? I mean, there's a lot of flood plains going on there, so Petra might not be as beneficial, but I count 12 desert tiles there without even having explored much around the city (including a few hills), so I'm thinking yeah... give me Petra.

 

[adwcta]

Yeah, use GL to get Currency. Then go back for Theology.

Petra is better than the extra half a GP you'll get.

 

[thelesserevil]

I definitely won't be able to rush Currency with the GL. That would mean I'd have to get Animal Husbandry, Archery, The Wheel AND Mathematics while the GL is being built, after already being behind on Writing because of the bonus that other Civs get on King. I'm not factoring it into the equation here.

I do think I can rush towards Currency, though, grab Petra and probably the Temple of Artemis (and maybe even the Hanging Gardens) along the way. Theology would come a lot later than usual, and my Religion (Pacalism!) won't be as hot as it tends to get, but it's worth it, right?

 

[Cromagnus]

Don't forget, flood plains don't get the bonus. So, that's a crappy Petra city. Desert does not equate to Petra. River Desert Hills equate to Petra. And LOTS of them. Like 7. You have 2 hills, only one of which is a River tile. Do you really want to put farms on desert to make them 2food/1hammer? That's equivalent to a plains start without Petra, except for Desert Folklore, obviously.

Petra is (usually) a waste. I don't even bother unless I've got 7 desert hills with at least 3 of them being river. (3food/3production/1faith is WAY better than 1food/4production/1faith unless you're going for early domination)

Also, always beeline Theology with the Maya IMHO. It's totally worth it to get the (multiple) extra GPs. Theology by turn 70 vs Theology by turn 90 is 2 extra GPs.

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

Don't forget, flood plains don't get the bonus. So, that's a crappy Petra city. Desert does not equate to Petra. River Desert Hills equate to Petra. And LOTS of them. Like 7. You have 2 hills, only one of which is a River tile. Do you really want to put farms on desert to make them 2food/1hammer? That's equivalent to a plains start without Petra, except for Desert Folklore, obviously.

I don't think the Sugar spots count as flood plains, though, do they? If they don't, then I gotta agree. If they do, then would be worth it I think.

 

[ravenmagus]

I don't think the Sugar spots count as flood plains, though, do they? If they don't, then I gotta agree. If they do, then would be worth it I think.

They do

 

[Browd]

Also this city can never build Petra -- not enough hammers. Apart from the point about Petra just turning flat desert tiles into plains tiles (agree this map sucks for Petra), the only way you get Petra here is to use a GE. And the best source of an early GE is the Mayan Long Count.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

Isn't it possible to get pretty much every wonder on King? Well, maybe not with this no-hammer start.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

You have 2 hills

I think he has 3 overall in the 3-ring radius, which I agree is too few for Petra. But I would say 6 hills is good enough for Petra.

Now, if he were the Dutch...

 

[klaskeren]

very bad petra spot, should just rush theo, and be sure to pick up dessert faith with pyramids ASAP, also should have settled near mountain i think

 

[Carazycool]

While it is not an ideal Petra city, it would still be a very good Petra city. There are 17 tiles that would gain an additional food and hammer. That is pretty significant. Plus an additional trade. Maybe it should not be prioritized before theology but you could probably go straight for theology and then straight for currency and maybe you will get a chance for a great engineer before you get to currency (from the UA) and use it to finish petra. score.

 

[Cromagnus]

Well, by my standards, it is definitely not a good Petra city, by any means. 9 of those Petra tiles are plain ol' desert, which, with Petra, are only equivalent to plains. There are only 5 good tiles, and 2 of them are third tier, and you'll have to buy them for top dollar because the city will never expand into 3rd tier hills until the late game. So, you're building Petra for an oasis, a sheep hills and a gem hills. (Presumably the city itself was built on flood plains, so will not benefit)

That's +3 production, +3 food. This start doesn't lack food, and investing in Petra for +3 production instead of building other things you need is not great. The focus should be all about Desert Folklore and working those flood plains farms and plantations. This is a great start for food and gold, and a bad start for production. It'll take forever to build Petra, and you don't have the hammers to spare. Using the GE on Petra here is also a waste IMHO. Depending on the difficulty level & goal victory condition, I would save the GE Long Count for later or use that GE on a different Wonder. There's a chance that you'll find a city location for a settler that's a better fit for Petra, though. In which case, a GE for Petra wouldn't be a bad idea. /shrug

 

[kb27787]

4 hills and one oasis; not bad (maybe more up north); I say you can go for Petra. You can hard build Petra on king no problem using just the gems and the sheep and maybe one or two more bought hill; your city should outgrow the AIs pretty easily with all that food, and desert folklore+holy warriors will neutralize any pathetic military threat the AI can pose on king. (make sure you snag HG along the way if you're going that route);

but, this is king. Get great library then head for theology first then beeline to Petra, hard-building everything. Forget about building troops or expanding; your city will churn out settlers in 3-4 turns with Petra anyway.

 

[Tur4]

I agree that it is a poor spot for petra. Its not that I wouldn't consider building petra. But I sure wouldn't focus my strategy on it. I probably wouldn't even waste a GE on it. As others have mentioned desert hills are what makes petra so strong.

I think you are far more likely going to be able to find another city near by that is a better petra city. I would much rather have a city with 8 desert hills than a city with 20 poor plain desert tiles.

So go for theology right away. You probably have enough production to snag great library. On king its really not very hard to get it. You might need to buy a couple of those desert hills and work them with your city starving to speed it up just to make certain. If you find a better city for petra, or if the hidden third ring to the NW has at least 3 more decent desert tiles, then use the GE for Petra. Otherwise just continue as normal.

 

[isau]

Not sure about Petra but if I had this start I'd have a hard time stopping myself from reloading and moving the city so I could be on that desert hill next to the river + mountain. Although we can't see too much of what's down there yet.

 

[thelesserevil]

Not sure about Petra but if I had this start I'd have a hard time stopping myself from reloading and moving the city so I could be on that desert hill next to the river + mountain. Although we can't see too much of what's down there yet.

Not much good. In fact, there wasn't much good in any direction, and I abandoned the game (for now at least) because I had no idea where to settle a second city, let alone a third.

North, there was a ton of desert hills, a huge mountain range and a natural wonder (Mount Sinai) placed in such a manner that it was nearly impossible to get without half your city's territory being mountains.

South there were some decent resources (the marble you can see, fish, crabs) though also a lot of tundra tiles, and the sea resources were placed on opposite sides of a two-tile tundra landbridge making getting them both pretty much impossible.

East there was a city state and lots of hills and forests with nary a luxury in sight.

West was the land of plenty, with rivers, luxuries, forests, hills and at least three other Civs (Denmark, China and England) that didn't seem too fond of me to begin with.

But thanks for the Petra lessons, guys. I've not done a lot of desert starts (just one, really, with Arabia that had aaaaaall the hills around it) so I'm a bit of a dumbo when it comes to it.

 

[caiman0815]

I would build petra: 4 hills and an oasis are in reach (+5 food and + 5 hammers, thats nearly a hanging garden + settled engineer); furthermore, if you dont build petra, 9+ tiles of the city would be crappy flat desert tiles. not to mention the extra trade route.

but yeah, production is low, so if you would get petra is another question, but I think petra is the only way to make that city more productive

 

[thelesserevil]

For some reason the game likes to put me in the desert when I'm playing the Maya. I got another one, and well...

Spoiler :

...based on what people have said in here, this seems like a definite Petra city to me. 11 hills within the city's work radius, including three on a river (four if you count the one with silver on it) and the one the city is built on. The oasis south of the city is just icing on the cake.

Production is good too, I managed to comfortably finish the GL seen in production there (after switching to Production focus for a bit). There seems to be plenty of desert to go around, so I'll probably have competition for it, but I think I can do it.

I just used the GL to rush Philosophy and I'm 10 turns away from getting Drama & Poetry. The current plan is to finish that, then switch towards obtaining currency, then grabbing Theology while Petra is being built. I'd snag Theology before making a beeline for Currency, but with other civs quite likely being in the desert too, I don't quite feel comfortable with that.

Now I just need to figure out which GP to pick first. I doubt I'll need the Great Prophet to enhance my religion early, because I cannot even imagine a scenario where I won't be absolutely swimming in faith, between Desert Folklore and having extra faith from a Temple early on. I'm tempted to grab a Great Scientist right away for an Academy, but I have NO idea where to place it...

I'm also not quite sure where to expand to; the hilly, desert region with what looks like a river and Wheat down south, or the coastal spot with the river, fish and more copper to the west... or whether I should grab a worker first, or go right for that Temple, a Granary or the National College.

I swear, sometimes I feel like I should just have a more experienced Civ player sitting here with me, holding my hand while I play the game.

 

[Browd]

Definitely a much better Petra city. Best spot for a GS academy is on the plains wheat tile.

 

[thelesserevil]

And a second one (I imagine it won't take too long, considering I'll likely be rolling in Science soon), perhaps on one of the hills not next to the river? Those seem like better spots than either the plains or the plain desert tiles to me, but I'm not 100% sure.

Also, I've decided to go right for Petra instead of grabbing Theology immediately, because I've met two of my neighbours, and well...

Spoiler :

...I really wouldn't put building Petra in their crappy semi-desert cities beyond them.

(Also, on an unrelated note: ugh, Babylon.)