The Rant of 50

DNK

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POST #34 FOR ACTUAL IDEAS


Being quite bored, I decided to come up with the 50 most puzzling aspects of Civ4. After having played the game for a while, I still cannot understand the logic behind these things, or simply think they could have been implemented far better. Perhaps I am wrong on a few, but I think overall the game's realism reminds me most of swiss cheese. Anyway, here they are. Feel free to disagree and discuss. I'm hoping this might spur some realism-oriented types to develop better mods (I know a few have already been addressed)...

1. Settlers - it used to be that to make a settler, you had to effectively grow an extra "citizen". This made logical sense, since the settler would form a city of one "citizen". Now for some reason you can build a settler completely out of hammers or food... I guess the former being some sort of robotic city building machine.

2. Hammers - someone care to explain what these actually are? It still doesn't make much sense to me as to why the same thing that plains make more of than grassland (why again is that?) are also increased by forests, hills (?), and iron/etc.

3. Production - going along with the hammers confusion, what exactly is going on during construction? Are we taking all these "hammers" and then applying them over a certain number of turns to build something? Then why can we just pay for it later on? What use was counting hammers if money just magics the productions out of thin air? Were those hammers materials, man-hours? And when we're paying everyone to build _____, wouldn't that be losing other forms of production (food and commerce)?

4. Railroads - are not necessarily that much faster than roads. I'm willing to be with Roman era road building technology (especially since they were all so nice and straight) one could drive from point A to B just as fast as on rails, unless those rails had bullet trains. Can't we just assume everything is in motorized form once automobiles take the stage? Are my archers still walking everywhere - really, with what I'm paying them they can buy ATVs at least...

5. Upgrades - And why didn't they go buy some guns at the local gun shop years ago? Obviously their government is too cheap to properly arm them, but a pistol costs less than a proper bow and arrow set now anyway, I'd bet. Why don't units automatically upgrade under the system I'm about to propose...

6. Units - I think it would be MUCH nicer if instead of having just one special unit per civ and then some rather simple different units, have multiple advancements of unit types. For instance, you could build cheap and average archers, or research archery some more and build more advanced units, or research some more and have expert units. Same with animal units, melee units, etc. This seems far more realistic, as from what I've read, civilizations have tended to specialize (or not at all at others) in their tactics. This would also make more technologies to either research or not, giving players more options on development, since none would be necessary - don't need to know how to hit someone in the head with a mace to shoot a gun.

7. Technologies - who came up with these anyway? Do we have to spend 100 years researching drama to make a play? Apparently people never told stories or acting things out prior to the renaissance... all those tribal rituals, oral traditions, etc, didn't make people happy and weren't actually "culture". It's not culture if it's not Western...

7b. Technologies - Who manages to build a civilization and not know how to hunt? Farming I can understand, but hunting? Apparently the same people that mastered mining and the wheel. Bright lot those guys are... Same with mysticism - what exactly is difficult about that, and what ancient civilizations were these that just didn't think about that stuff? I'm curious to know, really.

7c. Technologies - Why can I only make macemen after I have learned the concept of civil service? Were macemen born out of this? Where is this connection? Why are they so much better than guys with axes? Personally, I'd put my money on the axes. And did long range bows not exist before feudalism, and was it impossible for them to do so? I guess my real problem is that the technologies seem to be hopelessly connected to one history, and are so non-dynamic that we're forced to replay it repeatedly in this game instead of introducing a more realistic and natural approach to progress.

8. Technologies - so why is it I can be in 1995 and still not know priesthood? My society understands all the complexities of fusion, but dressing guys up in robes and having them sing chants is something we just never could figure out. No, we need a special group of scientists to research it and figure it out first. Apparently when the missionaries came over from China they never bothered to mention how to build monasteries, therefore we still don't have any. What jerks. And none of my people, in all their travels, have ever come across the concept either... At some point wouldn't technologies just transfer from one society to another, given enough interaction?

9. Technologies - who or what exactly is it that's controlling this and finding these things out? When in history did the ancient rulers say, "okay, today we're discovering polytheism - get on it!" Because I think the next thing would be, "hey, many gods, cool, we did it, now lets discover advanced robotics." This entire system needs to be seriously reworked.

10. Food - why can't I trade food between cities and countries, as we do in reality? I understand perhaps in the early game it will be less of a possibility, but really that's just how it is now.

11. Food - why can I only raise pigs where I find them? I didn't realize soybeans and corn have completely covered Iowa and most of the Midwest since time immemorial, and we just ever so recently started farming them. How lucky for us there wasn't just grass and trees here, or else we'd be stuck in the middle of cottages and workshops right now. Of course, Iowa being such a prosperous producer of food, we have huge cities everywhere! That's how it works, you know...

12. Promotions - it's nice how if you have experience and get "promoted", you then remain experienced until the end of time. Fun but completely unrealistic, and the specialized and variously skilled idea would work much nicer anyway. But we all love someone with 5 stars and city garrison 3, don't we?

13. Towns - do not decrease food production from the area. This is why all our cities in Illinois have never interfered with our scavenging for food.

14. Cities - why is it a wall built in 890bc still surrounds my city that has increased by a factor of 10 since? Why is it I only need to build one hospital for a city with a population of 1 and one with 20? Why instead don't you have the ability to create multiples of some structure? Why can't I make a city with multiple factories and one with multiple theaters? This would really help specialization and the games would be more fun. I get tired of, "hey, I built a temple, now I'll build a monastery, now I'll build a theater, now I'll build an aqueduct" and by the end of the game all my cities have everything they'll ever need, ten troops guarding them, and are sitting around making wealth (because you can just build it, that's how economics works - build it with iron, preferably, because that makes more wealth than building it with copper... but just as much as building with trees from two forests. Adam Smith obviously knew nothing of these things, what a fool).

15. Oil - they call it "black gold" because it produces two hammers and one unit of commerce. That's what gold does, by the way, help you produce things. Now an oasis, on the other hand, that produces two units of commerce and more food than a patch of highly fertile cropland. Of course, black gold and oases don't compare to silk, which is obviously more valuable than oil. This is why China is catching up to the US economically: it's vast silk production. And the Arabs are all so rich because of their oases.

16. Conquering the world - is totally doable, and any twelve-year-old can do it, which is why that is the goal of the game. Yes, since the dawn of civilization, a few societies have continued to grow and flourish and progress without any real problems, save the occasional war. Internal strife is limited to people complaining about their cities being too crowded, but this can easily be solved by making a Colosseum. The fact that you're a fascist dictator who still enforces slavery in the middle of the 20th century, while controlling the UN and spreading institutions of learning across his country makes little difference. The people really are just that apathetic and clueless. Besides, all those institutions are somehow making you gain the knowledge of composites, because that's what you told them to do.

Under no circumstances would a much more dynamic and challenging goal be to simply survive as long as you could, given some harsher game code, where civilizations actually rose AND fell, spawning new divisions and civilizations, religions split, uprisings occurred, the people cared about how they were rules, etc, etc.

17. Future technologies - make everyone a little happier and healthier at first, and then do nothing. This is why we should stop wasting money researching and accept that after fission, all technological progress effectively halts.

18. Trading technologies - although it took us 200 years to fully understand the alphabet, we could have just had our neighbors, who we have interacted with regularly but not yet learned of their symbols, trade it to us for philosophy (which did not exist prior to the Middle Ages. All school children know this, for Socrates was in fact a citizen of Henry VIII, who cut off his head upon Socrates explaining to him that he could not build the Angkor Wat because someone had already done so, and only one country could build it. Such were the lessons of philosophy).

19. Artillery - can only bombard cities and not other units. This is why, in battle, artillery is sent to the front lines and forced into a frontal attack of the enemy first, while the regular force waits for it to impose collateral damage. To begin with, artillery is very mobile by nature, and is capable of assaulting enemy forces. This is what they teach at West Point.

20. Great prophets - make lots of money. This is why the Romans were so happy Jesus came, because he made them rich.

21. Sand - is totally acceptable terrain to build a city with millions of people in it, but totally unacceptable for making a workshop. Workshops, as we all know, inherently cannot be placed in large, empty, desolate locations, because otherwise the workers would get sad.

22. Sand - is totally unacceptable terrain for hamlets, for that matter. A city, yes, but a TOWN?! You're crazy...

23. Tundra - see sand.

24. Pastures - produce more food than an equal amount of land used for farming. This is why poor people around the world eat meat all the time, because it is so cheap due to its cultivational advantages over, say, rice and wheat.

25. Economics - don't exist, except as a technology we acquired a long time ago and hence just assumed works mysteriously.

26. Democracy - is not forced on a ruler, and nor does it take any of his autonomy away. This is why the French Revolution was not necessary and only a result of the king wanting to have his head chopped off. This is also why President Bush can do as he pleases and declare war and stay at war at his leisure, because there is no intrinsic aspect of democracy that would prevent this.

27. Mountains - cannot be traversed by anyone ever.

28. Nukes - do not destroy cities, nor do they kill units stationed in them. If someone dropped an H-bomb on Houston tomorrow, it would still be standing.

29. Battles - can only take place between two units at a time. At no point may another unit from one of the armies join in. This is why when an army of 1000 men and one of 1,000,000 men face off, each man fires his gun at one other man on the other side in tidy procession. This is also why Sun Tzu was quoted as saying, "numbers mean nothing in battle, only how many woodsman promotions your unit has do."

30. Stealth bombers - are regularly shot down by common infantry using SAM missiles. This is why we spend billions on each B-2, because it's really just not that much more special than a $15m F-15.

31. Global warming - turns land into desert. It does nothing else. It literally just makes everything hotter, which somehow makes everything drier. By no means does a warmer climate mean more rainfall. That is just a ridiculous load of idiocy. Hot = dry. Just look at a map, all the stuff along the equator is desert. Rainforests are known for their aridity.

32. Healing - is common during war, because when you lose 1,000 men in a battalion, you can just sit around for a few months and they will magically come back to life. Not only that, but they will also get your medic1 promotion, which is given only to units that have been in combat, and is in no way a reflection of the medical personnel trained in the unit. Medical training is always done during a gunfight, not in medical schools.

33. Modern technology - is relatively useless in increasing food production. This is why everyone is still farming, because nothing has changed in the past hundred years, and we still need all those people to work the fields.

34. Colonialism - never existed.

35. Civilizations - have existed everywhere at all points in time since the time of Ur and the Sumerians. Especially not even in the present are there tribal areas anywhere.

36. Wars - affect only the countries involved, and not the neighbors. Refugees are known to stay put and not leave their homelands in times of crisis. They are called refugees because they take refuge in their basements.

37. Pandemics - never happen. The bubonic plague was actually an April Fool's joke in Europe, but because we do not understand their ancient humor, we think they were serious that so many people died. It's really just a funny joke, as is HIV, influenza, Avian Flu, tuberculosis, malaria, and polio. Tee hee.

38. Launching a mission to another planet - means you win at Earth. This is what the space race was about - colonizing Mars. Ask your parents about it, the US won, and that's why we now own the world. The Russians tried to put a dog on Mars, but instead of colonizing the planet, it quickly suffocated. But we got Neil Armstrong and Marilyn Monroe up there, and ever since they have been making us a beautiful new civilization, effectively ending history.

39. Culture - defines borders and is otherwise meaningless. This is why there are no textbooks on cultural imperialism - it just doesn't exist. Hollywood is only good for trading three movies for gems or gold. Broadway is just as useful, though, since everyone is willing to trade "Cats" scripts for silk, which is, of course, highly prized.

40. Modern armor - will destroy any ground forces. This is why Iraq is completely peaceful, because they have no way of countering our technology.

41. Battleships - can only bombard cities. This is why they are considered very large forms of artillery, because as we know artillery also can only bombard cities.

42. Wars - cost no more than regular day-to-day life, this is why we can stay in Iraq for as long as we like, because it is quite cheap. The hundred billion dollars was appropriated for buying more silk and nothing else. The silk is so that our soldiers' uniforms breathe better.

43. Capitalism - does not exist actually, and in no way gives a competitive advantage to a society. This is why there has never been a book written called, "The End of History" and why everyone is so loathe to adopt capitalist policies.

44. Labor systems - can all be classified as either tribal, slavery, serfdoms, caste systems, or emancipated. Unions do not exist, nor is capitalist a way to refer to a labor system. That is ridiculous, as capitalism just always was and is so unimportant that it is effectively not mentioned in a game about the history of civilization.

45. Hospitals - only existed in the 20th century. We should not think of it as "hospitals have existed in concept for a long time but the technologies used have improved" but just that they came about all of a sudden quite recently. The Romans for sure never built them, and the Greeks could have cared less about anatomy. Biology is a discipline that must necessarily come about during the modern era. All progress will always follow a similar path to the way it did on Earth, and more specifically in the "Western" parts thereof.

46. Forests - make melee units 50% stronger. Your guess is as good as mine...

47. Bears - regularly attack large groups of armed people. This is why they say, "you're more scared of it that it is of you."

48. Gunpowder - did not exist prior to the Europeans discovering it in China. This is why it must be discovered during the Renaissance, because this is when the Europeans discovered it, and it doesn't matter that other civilizations discovered it in the European Classical period. They don't count.

49. Technologies - are always developed linearly.

50. Size - of a country is the determinant of its power. This is why Japan, being so small, is completely unimportant economically and politically. The fact that it is the second largest economic power is due to its vast silk industry.
 
buddy, play rhye's and fall. you might wet yourself
 
Why do you have to click on units to get them to move? I don't think Alexander the Great had a mouse when he conquered Persia, that's totally unrealistic.

:rolleyes:
 
i agree with pretty much everything u just said. the thing i hate the most is how ******** the AI is. is ryhes and fall any good? mods at the moment just make my pc crash. please make some suggestions about how to fix the problem if u see it in a thread i made somewhere
 
Dash it all, it's a game ! Whoever even thought that it ought to model the real world accurately ?
Moreover, there are very many curiosities not listed in the fifty, and I venture to suggest some additions :-

51. Your capital is adequately guarded by a man with a club who has been there for over 5000 years.

52. Bombs never kill anybody, nor sink ships.

53. Aircraft defending a city cannot be attacked.

54. Helicopters cannot fly over water, except rivers - and the latter reduce the strength of a helicopter's attack from the air by 50%.

55. You have to build a police headquarters before you can train spies.

56. Throwing stones at a city (from a trebuchet) does more damage to the city defences than do cannonballs.

57. It takes just as many bombardment shots to reduce to zero the defence of a city with 20% defence bonus as for one with 125%.

58. Bunkers protect only the primary defender of a city: other units present take collateral damage as they would if no bunker were present.

59. The attack range of aircraft is limited, but they can be rebased half-way round the world in one turn.

60. Developing Biology increases farm output, though in the real world fertilisers are chemical, not biological.

The OP seems to have covered most of my other thoughts, but I'm sure there are a whole lot more to come from elsewhere.
 
Many of those points are to make the game more playable, and not as exploitive. i.e., if you allow food trade like in Civ2, you can have one power city that has more food than anyone else, since they're all trading with them. Buildings are also generic - sure you can have more than 1 in a city, but 1 building represents a series of them. From a game standpoint (just a few hundred turns), it wouldn't make sense to build the same thing 10 times in a row. The game is complex enough, and adding more realism would actually increase micromanagement.

In short, if you don't like it, mod it! ;)
 
Realism was offered at one time, but with it came expliotive behaviour the made the designers say we could do without.

Take CIv3 it has the cures to most things you say but the realism can be heavily explioted. Think trade in Civ3, you wanna sell some bannanas and see a custumer has a fat wallet (say 1000 bucks) you ask for a G$ up front and he says NO!! so you inch down to 999, he say NO! so you try 998 etc..... after way to may "asks", you finally get him down to his "accept" price of 257$. Congrats!! you have succeded in getting the highest possible price for those bannanas :banana: without selling for less then he would have paid. Avoiding this routine would have been like not picking up free money thats just sitting their on the table.

Whats more fake but more necassary cuz it was way faster was doing kinda the opposite. Say you take a stab closer to the bottom of the (1000$) stack and offer your way up....even past when the CIv says "OK sold!":lol:
Funny this ain't happing in real life, but Civ3 encouraged you to see how high he would go even after you had already met on price. :cool: IS that real? hell know! but if you avoided these sinister dealing you potentially lost thousands of bucks in the course of one game!

Sure you could a stop youself from explioting when a "asking price" is met and try to make you bids more more purposeful in zeroing in on the target price without getting stopped to short, it was askill you developed and thats realism. Its to bad Realism comes at a meticulous cost that some call handcuffing and this only one example of playing fair that will end up costing you a massive point loss.

Again, simply avoiding the "start from the top and work your way down" routine and never raising the "asking price" after you found hes willing to accept was a example of realism that the player chose to have or not In Civ4 that choice does not exist. You sit down and see the price printed on the Civs forhead thats shows what hes willing to pay. No deal making for ether side. Its all done for you. No realism but real simple adn very fair.

Theres a cost for everything and sacrificing realism was the cost of better gameplay for some people
 
Being quite bored, I decided to come up with the 50 most puzzling aspects of Civ4. After having played the game for a while, I still cannot understand the logic behind these things, or simply think they could have been implemented far better. Perhaps I am wrong on a few, but I think overall the game's realism reminds me most of swiss cheese. Anyway, here they are. Feel free to disagree and discuss. I'm hoping this might spur some realism-oriented types to develop better mods (I know a few have already been addressed)...

1. Settlers - it used to be that to make a settler, you had to effectively grow an extra "citizen". This made logical sense, since the settler would form a city of one "citizen". Now for some reason you can build a settler completely out of hammers or food... I guess the former being some sort of robotic city building machine.
-"hammers" are the production for the materials needed to contruct the city and the "food" is the nourishment needed to supply the band of colonists you assembled.

2. Hammers - someone care to explain what these actually are? It still doesn't make much sense to me as to why the same thing that plains make more of than grassland (why again is that?) are also increased by forests, hills (?), and iron/etc.
-"hammers" is the symbolic amount of production that a block of land can provide; habitats (grasslands, plains, desert, etc.) and geographical features (hills, mountains, forests, etc.) give different bonues or penalties as they do commonly in real life.

3. Production - going along with the hammers confusion, what exactly is going on during construction? Are we taking all these "hammers" and then applying them over a certain number of turns to build something? Then why can we just pay for it later on? What use was counting hammers if money just magics the productions out of thin air? Were those hammers materials, man-hours? And when we're paying everyone to build _____, wouldn't that be losing other forms of production (food and commerce)?
-production on a city improvement depends on the "hammer" yield you accumulate from the surroundings; since each "turn" in a game is equal or over a year each, it makes sense that spending an appropriate boost in pay would increase work in time for the next turn.

4. Railroads - are not necessarily that much faster than roads. I'm willing to be with Roman era road building technology (especially since they were all so nice and straight) one could drive from point A to B just as fast as on rails, unless those rails had bullet trains. Can't we just assume everything is in motorized form once automobiles take the stage? Are my archers still walking everywhere - really, with what I'm paying them they can buy ATVs at least...
-since each "turn" in a game is equal or over a year each, unit movements before industrialization were actually slower in realistic terms.

5. Upgrades - And why didn't they go buy some guns at the local gun shop years ago? Obviously their government is too cheap to properly arm them, but a pistol costs less than a proper bow and arrow set now anyway, I'd bet. Why don't units automatically upgrade under the system I'm about to propose...
-individual units are symbolic for actual regiments and armies; buying euipment for each realistic soldier would require the amount of gold required already; plus, additional funds would be needed to train them properly.

6. Units - I think it would be MUCH nicer if instead of having just one special unit per civ and then some rather simple different units, have multiple advancements of unit types. For instance, you could build cheap and average archers, or research archery some more and build more advanced units, or research some more and have expert units. Same with animal units, melee units, etc. This seems far more realistic, as from what I've read, civilizations have tended to specialize (or not at all at others) in their tactics. This would also make more technologies to either research or not, giving players more options on development, since none would be necessary - don't need to know how to hit someone in the head with a mace to shoot a gun.
-adding additional unit variants is not a realism problem, it's a balancing problem; more technologies would add more complexity and would cost more hours to balance; besides, promotions already fill msot of this void.

7. Technologies - who came up with these anyway? Do we have to spend 100 years researching drama to make a play? Apparently people never told stories or acting things out prior to the renaissance... all those tribal rituals, oral traditions, etc, didn't make people happy and weren't actually "culture". It's not culture if it's not Western...
-some people have argued for a feature that diffuses technology knowledge among neighboring civilizations; "Drama" introduces the theatre structure that was not commonly used for "tribal rituals." The most famous can be referenced back to the Greek Odeons. "Culture" is symbolic for a civilization's influence. Fine arts help spread this.

7b. Technologies - Who manages to build a civilization and not know how to hunt? Farming I can understand, but hunting? Apparently the same people that mastered mining and the wheel. Bright lot those guys are... Same with mysticism - what exactly is difficult about that, and what ancient civilizations were these that just didn't think about that stuff? I'm curious to know, really.
-"Hunting" does not represent the way of food consumption, as you do not gain any food surplus bonuses; it mainly represents is the sharpening and utilizing wooden/stone tools, thus is required for scouts, and later spearmen.

7c. Technologies - Why can I only make macemen after I have learned the concept of civil service? Were macemen born out of this? Where is this connection? Why are they so much better than guys with axes? Personally, I'd put my money on the axes. And did long range bows not exist before feudalism, and was it impossible for them to do so? I guess my real problem is that the technologies seem to be hopelessly connected to one history, and are so non-dynamic that we're forced to replay it repeatedly in this game instead of introducing a more realistic and natural approach to progress.
-technologies also represent eras, and instead of building a complex web of individual military technologies, units are placed under appropriate technolgies when the unit was most commonly used; unfortunately, there is no way to accurately describe the pace of military innovations using technologies.

8. Technologies - so why is it I can be in 1995 and still not know priesthood? My society understands all the complexities of fusion, but dressing guys up in robes and having them sing chants is something we just never could figure out. No, we need a special group of scientists to research it and figure it out first. Apparently when the missionaries came over from China they never bothered to mention how to build monasteries, therefore we still don't have any. What jerks. And none of my people, in all their travels, have ever come across the concept either... At some point wouldn't technologies just transfer from one society to another, given enough interaction?
-another reason why some people argue for a feature that diffuses technology knowledge among neighboring civilizations; gameplay balance would have to be considered.

9. Technologies - who or what exactly is it that's controlling this and finding these things out? When in history did the ancient rulers say, "okay, today we're discovering polytheism - get on it!" Because I think the next thing would be, "hey, many gods, cool, we did it, now lets discover advanced robotics." This entire system needs to be seriously reworked.
-even though technologies are so conveniently labeled for you, the unknown field is a process of tests and experiments; that is why it takes a series of "turns" until you finally master it.

10. Food - why can't I trade food between cities and countries, as we do in reality? I understand perhaps in the early game it will be less of a possibility, but really that's just how it is now.
-there are no countries, there are civilizations (two different things); there are no governors, so there is no city interactive diplomacy; food resources symbolize the agricultural exchange

11. Food - why can I only raise pigs where I find them? I didn't realize soybeans and corn have completely covered Iowa and most of the Midwest since time immemorial, and we just ever so recently started farming them. How lucky for us there wasn't just grass and trees here, or else we'd be stuck in the middle of cottages and workshops right now. Of course, Iowa being such a prosperous producer of food, we have huge cities everywhere! That's how it works, you know...
-animals and crops are best raised and cultivated in their natural habitat for the best potential; colonies are not included in Civilization IV, so the feature of planting or shipping food resources was never implented; Iowa uses its surplus in corporations, a feature that will be included in the upcoming expansion.

12. Promotions - it's nice how if you have experience and get "promoted", you then remain experienced until the end of time. Fun but completely unrealistic, and the specialized and variously skilled idea would work much nicer anyway. But we all love someone with 5 stars and city garrison 3, don't we?
-if a unit, representing a regiment or army, has enough combative experience, it is not that unrealistic for it to become specialized in a field of fighting.

13. Towns - do not decrease food production from the area. This is why all our cities in Illinois have never interfered with our scavenging for food.
-the city represents the total populous from within and its surroundings; this includes the food storage and usage.

14. Cities - why is it a wall built in 890bc still surrounds my city that has increased by a factor of 10 since? Why is it I only need to build one hospital for a city with a population of 1 and one with 20? Why instead don't you have the ability to create multiples of some structure? Why can't I make a city with multiple factories and one with multiple theaters? This would really help specialization and the games would be more fun. I get tired of, "hey, I built a temple, now I'll build a monastery, now I'll build a theater, now I'll build an aqueduct" and by the end of the game all my cities have everything they'll ever need, ten troops guarding them, and are sitting around making wealth (because you can just build it, that's how economics works - build it with iron, preferably, because that makes more wealth than building it with copper... but just as much as building with trees from two forests. Adam Smith obviously knew nothing of these things, what a fool).
-city improvements, like units, are symbolic for the assembly of that type of construction; the graphics themselves are confined so the city doesn't overflow too much in the surrounding tiles; shrinking the buildings wouldn't solve the problem since it would produce "lag" and constrict lesser graphics/processor users.

15. Oil - they call it "black gold" because it produces two hammers and one unit of commerce. That's what gold does, by the way, help you produce things. Now an oasis, on the other hand, that produces two units of commerce and more food than a patch of highly fertile cropland. Of course, black gold and oases don't compare to silk, which is obviously more valuable than oil. This is why China is catching up to the US economically: it's vast silk production. And the Arabs are all so rich because of their oases.
-oasis is a very fertile piece of land where natural riches can be accumulated, thus its tile bonus; silk is valuable locally as a luxery wearing material, thus its tile bonus and "happiness"; oil is a polutant that has a limited use for a local area, thus its tile bonus; the oil resource should gather much of its commerce from trading to needy civilizations, as it is a necessity for various modern crafts; the tile geogrphic bonuses and trade bonuses are two different things and should not be confused.

16. Conquering the world - is totally doable, and any twelve-year-old can do it, which is why that is the goal of the game. Yes, since the dawn of civilization, a few societies have continued to grow and flourish and progress without any real problems, save the occasional war. Internal strife is limited to people complaining about their cities being too crowded, but this can easily be solved by making a Colosseum. The fact that you're a fascist dictator who still enforces slavery in the middle of the 20th century, while controlling the UN and spreading institutions of learning across his country makes little difference. The people really are just that apathetic and clueless. Besides, all those institutions are somehow making you gain the knowledge of composites, because that's what you told them to do.
-the game does include ethnicity, nationalism or rebellions, so conquering the known world is quite possible; a little known fact, slavery was still enforced in some countries into the 20th century until ended by international intervention; "spreading institutions of learning?"; scientists and research is represented by your scientific output (people are for production and arms, scientists are for research).

Under no circumstances would a much more dynamic and challenging goal be to simply survive as long as you could, given some harsher game code, where civilizations actually rose AND fell, spawning new divisions and civilizations, religions split, uprisings occurred, the people cared about how they were rules, etc, etc.
-rising and falling of civilizations is used in a mod called Rhye's and Fall of Civilization and your other features can be found in a game called Europa Universalis III; however, both are linear to actually worldly empires and events.

17. Future technologies - make everyone a little happier and healthier at first, and then do nothing. This is why we should stop wasting money researching and accept that after fission, all technological progress effectively halts.
-the game officially ended at 2050 B.C.E., so the addition of other technologies would be pointless unless needed for another feature in future addons.

18. Trading technologies - although it took us 200 years to fully understand the alphabet, we could have just had our neighbors, who we have interacted with regularly but not yet learned of their symbols, trade it to us for philosophy (which did not exist prior to the Middle Ages. All school children know this, for Socrates was in fact a citizen of Henry VIII, who cut off his head upon Socrates explaining to him that he could not build the Angkor Wat because someone had already done so, and only one country could build it. Such were the lessons of philosophy).
-it's hard to respond to sarcasm, so escuse me if you are misquoted; "Alphabet" represents the technique for one civilization to decode another, that is why it is necessary for teaching other technologies; if you are not able to translate, you won't be able to communicate with others who can't as well (despite the elaborate monologue you recieve from civilizations before "Alphabet," the simple messages of "Hello" or "Die" could easily be recognized).

19. Artillery - can only bombard cities and not other units. This is why, in battle, artillery is sent to the front lines and forced into a frontal attack of the enemy first, while the regular force waits for it to impose collateral damage. To begin with, artillery is very mobile by nature, and is capable of assaulting enemy forces. This is what they teach at West Point.
-again, sarcasm makes your point difficult to read; some people argue for a tile bombardment feature, which some mods implement; the artillery in Civilization IV was programmed to counter the SoD (stack of dooms) that were common in Civilization III, without making it overpowered like in Civilization II.

20. Great prophets - make lots of money. This is why the Romans were so happy Jesus came, because he made them rich.
-recognizing Jesus Christ as the son of God would weaken the emporer who had already claimed that status; in Civilization terms, the Roman empire was composed of vassal states, so strengthening the rebellious province of Judea wouldn't be a smart move.

21. Sand - is totally acceptable terrain to build a city with millions of people in it, but totally unacceptable for making a workshop. Workshops, as we all know, inherently cannot be placed in large, empty, desolate locations, because otherwise the workers would get sad.
-you can build any city that has a water source, whether it will grow or not; the sarcasm, again, is confusing; you cannot industrialize desert tiles with workshops because it would be uninhabitable for the working community (no accessable food or water).

22. Sand - is totally unacceptable terrain for hamlets, for that matter. A city, yes, but a TOWN?! You're crazy...
-you can build any city that has a water source, whether it will grow or not; commercial communities, like cottages, hamlets, villages, and towns cannot grow under such arid conditions.

23. Tundra - see sand.
-you can build any city that has a water source, whether it will grow or not; commercial communities, like cottages, hamlets, villages, and towns cannot grow under such arid conditions.

24. Pastures - produce more food than an equal amount of land used for farming. This is why poor people around the world eat meat all the time, because it is so cheap due to its cultivational advantages over, say, rice and wheat.
-pastures represent the dairy and meat products that are essential for the protein of a healthy diet, of course its going to have great growth impact.

25. Economics - don't exist, except as a technology we acquired a long time ago and hence just assumed works mysteriously.
-for marketing and gameplay, Civilization IV was dumbed-down and simplified, this includes economics.

26. Democracy - is not forced on a ruler, and nor does it take any of his autonomy away. This is why the French Revolution was not necessary and only a result of the king wanting to have his head chopped off. This is also why President Bush can do as he pleases and declare war and stay at war at his leisure, because there is no intrinsic aspect of democracy that would prevent this.
-the French Revolution brought a wave of social reforms that were spread with the conquests of Napoleon; President Bush had majority of the House and public appeal when the United States declared war; there has never been a true democracy since Athens of classical Greece, instead there are systems of representatives and constitutions.

27. Mountains - cannot be traversed by anyone ever.
-individual units are symbolic for actual regiments and armies; scaling and crossing mountains would be time consuming under harsh conditions, something that cannot be accurately displayed in a turn-based gameplay.

28. Nukes - do not destroy cities, nor do they kill units stationed in them. If someone dropped an H-bomb on Houston tomorrow, it would still be standing.
-after the atomic bombs, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were pulverized to rubble, but were rebuilt, something that Civilization IV accurately represent.

29. Battles - can only take place between two units at a time. At no point may another unit from one of the armies join in. This is why when an army of 1000 men and one of 1,000,000 men face off, each man fires his gun at one other man on the other side in tidy procession. This is also why Sun Tzu was quoted as saying, "numbers mean nothing in battle, only how many woodsman promotions your unit has do."
-individual units are symbolic for actual regiments and armies; it is impossible for an entire army to clash at the same time, it is composed of the individual battles of the regiments, which is why the Battle of Thermopylae was so successful.

30. Stealth bombers - are regularly shot down by common infantry using SAM missiles. This is why we spend billions on each B-2, because it's really just not that much more special than a $15m F-15.
-stealth bombers being shot down by SAM infantry have low probability; since individual units represent actual platoons, it is possible.

31. Global warming - turns land into desert. It does nothing else. It literally just makes everything hotter, which somehow makes everything drier. By no means does a warmer climate mean more rainfall. That is just a ridiculous load of idiocy. Hot = dry. Just look at a map, all the stuff along the equator is desert. Rainforests are known for their aridity.
-the heavy precipitation of rainforests is the result of the increased evaporization of water caused by the higher temperatures; however, magnify these temperatures any higher and you get desertification.

32. Healing - is common during war, because when you lose 1,000 men in a battalion, you can just sit around for a few months and they will magically come back to life. Not only that, but they will also get your medic1 promotion, which is given only to units that have been in combat, and is in no way a reflection of the medical personnel trained in the unit. Medical training is always done during a gunfight, not in medical schools.
-if supplied, as in neutral or your territory, resting can give time for tending to the injured and recruiting new manpower (of course in neutral lands it takes longer); the medical promotion represents new and better techniques of treatments.

33. Modern technology - is relatively useless in increasing food production. This is why everyone is still farming, because nothing has changed in the past hundred years, and we still need all those people to work the fields.
-"Biology" allows to construction of farms without irrigation and increases its food yield by one; much of the world today is agrarian economically.

34. Colonialism - never existed.
-a feature that many people wish to be implemented in the future; in Civilization III, this was an option for retrieving a resource outside one's borders, but was removed in Civilization IV due to the new importance in culture and the more aggressive barbarians.

35. Civilizations - have existed everywhere at all points in time since the time of Ur and the Sumerians. Especially not even in the present are there tribal areas anywhere.
-not to be confused with countries, civilization is the generic term to the rule of particular people (i.e. the Western Civilization, the Islamic Civilization, the Chinese Civilization, the Indian Civilization, etc.).

36. Wars - affect only the countries involved, and not the neighbors. Refugees are known to stay put and not leave their homelands in times of crisis. They are called refugees because they take refuge in their basements.
-the sarcasm is confusing; refugees would require complicated coding and add no important gameplay element.

37. Pandemics - never happen. The bubonic plague was actually an April Fool's joke in Europe, but because we do not understand their ancient humor, we think they were serious that so many people died. It's really just a funny joke, as is HIV, influenza, Avian Flu, tuberculosis, malaria, and polio. Tee hee.
-the mod Rhye's and Fall of Civilization has plagues using the religion coding; this is a feature that has been anticipated for future Civilization releases.

38. Launching a mission to another planet - means you win at Earth. This is what the space race was about - colonizing Mars. Ask your parents about it, the US won, and that's why we now own the world. The Russians tried to put a dog on Mars, but instead of colonizing the planet, it quickly suffocated. But we got Neil Armstrong and Marilyn Monroe up there, and ever since they have been making us a beautiful new civilization, effectively ending history.
-the Apollo Program team project represents the space race, while the additional parts represents the space victory; the moon and alpha centuri are two different destinations

39. Culture - defines borders and is otherwise meaningless. This is why there are no textbooks on cultural imperialism - it just doesn't exist. Hollywood is only good for trading three movies for gems or gold. Broadway is just as useful, though, since everyone is willing to trade "Cats" scripts for silk, which is, of course, highly prized.
-"Culture" is symbolic for a civilization's influence; the entertainment resources in Civilization IV is perhaps skewed, and mods like Rhye's and Fall of Civilization have replaced them with something else (like Football, etc.).

40. Modern armor - will destroy any ground forces. This is why Iraq is completely peaceful, because they have no way of countering our technology.
-terrorism, such as insurgent parties and bombings, is not included in Civilization series, so that is an unfair comparison.

41. Battleships - can only bombard cities. This is why they are considered very large forms of artillery, because as we know artillery also can only bombard cities.
-this ties back to artillery, many want the freedom of tile bombardment; however, whether this feature was unbalanced or confused the AI, it was not implented.

42. Wars - cost no more than regular day-to-day life, this is why we can stay in Iraq for as long as we like, because it is quite cheap. The hundred billion dollars was appropriated for buying more silk and nothing else. The silk is so that our soldiers' uniforms breathe better.
-this ties back to economics, as it is simplified in Civilization IV; supplying troops does not cost any "coin", however war wariness can cause enough havoc that, if left unattended to, can starve your cities and production.

43. Capitalism - does not exist actually, and in no way gives a competitive advantage to a society. This is why there has never been a book written called, "The End of History" and why everyone is so loathe to adopt capitalist policies.
-corporations is a feature that will be introduced in the upcoming expansion pack.

44. Labor systems - can all be classified as either tribal, slavery, serfdoms, caste systems, or emancipated. Unions do not exist, nor is capitalist a way to refer to a labor system. That is ridiculous, as capitalism just always was and is so unimportant that it is effectively not mentioned in a game about the history of civilization.
-labor unions can be represented by the Artisan specialists; capitalism will be included in the future expansion with the feature of corporations.

45. Hospitals - only existed in the 20th century. We should not think of it as "hospitals have existed in concept for a long time but the technologies used have improved" but just that they came about all of a sudden quite recently. The Romans for sure never built them, and the Greeks could have cared less about anatomy. Biology is a discipline that must necessarily come about during the modern era. All progress will always follow a similar path to the way it did on Earth, and more specifically in the "Western" parts thereof.
-actually, until secularism, the religions and traditions of the early civilizations limited the research in anatomy as the dissecting of human corpses was frowned apon; the "hospital" represents the improved medical practices of the city.

46. Forests - make melee units 50% stronger. Your guess is as good as mine...
-the natural barriers of the forest force armies to fight in skirmishes, disorientating the troops and possibly demmoralizing them into retreat.

47. Bears - regularly attack large groups of armed people. This is why they say, "you're more scared of it that it is of you."
-bears don't attack if provoked and if a band of warriors enters their territory, a family of bears might feel threatened enough to attack.

48. Gunpowder - did not exist prior to the Europeans discovering it in China. This is why it must be discovered during the Renaissance, because this is when the Europeans discovered it, and it doesn't matter that other civilizations discovered it in the European Classical period. They don't count.
-however, the use of gunpowder was only used for entertainment; the Mongols are the first known to fully utilize this technology for weaponry, reigning from 1200-1400 B.C.E.; it's not exactly Middle ages or the Renaissance era, so does it matter what it is labeled?

49. Technologies - are always developed linearly
-you can't learn how to hold a gun until you can swing a sword; Civilization IV does an excellent job of allowing you to choose your own path of technologies, contrary to the previous Civilization games.

50. Size - of a country is the determinant of its power. This is why Japan, being so small, is completely unimportant economically and politically. The fact that it is the second largest economic power is due to its vast silk industry.
-that is utterly false; despite its size, a country can be powerful economically with trade and resources, diplomatically with religion and shrines, or militarily with technology and units; maybe you're not playing it right.
The Civilization series is about representing reality without its complexity. For balance issues, there are many things that were left out or stunted. My responses are in bold.
 
This post was great!

And to the poster who said, "you can't hold a gun before you can swing a sword." Tell that to Custer, lol.
 
to everyone freaking out... his post was loaded with sarcasm, he wasn't being serious...
 
hears a beater question.. on such a large scale, y even have units like spear men, ax men ect? y even get that spacific?
whouldnt it make more since to have simply *acent foot soldiers* *medivel foot soldiers* *modren foot soldiers*
once combustion is descovered, shouldnt all units get a bounus in movement?
 
thenooblet22 said:
-there are no countries, there are civilizations (two different things)
This line captured my heart, for it is true as true can be. Countries are different from civilizations.

By the way, we must all remember the concept of abstraction when playing Civ. That's why you don't have wars withing your Civ when you have civics that allow that (like vassalage and tribalism) -- it's all a big abstraction.
 
lol

silk rules the world :)

but only after you know about calender, because you don't know how to use silk if you don't know what day it is ;)

and :
53. Aircraft defending a city cannot be attacked.

-> unless the city is entirely void of other units, then you can attack a plane with a frigate.
 
54. a city level of 1 = about 10000 but 20 = 1,000,000 shouldn't 20 be about 200,000?
 
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