Theorycraft - barbs vs aliens?

[Jacozilla]

Couple thought questions -

1. Relative to impact on a player in CiV (barbarians) and BE (aliens), which is "stronger" or poses more of an issue for players at:
A) early game
B) mid game
C) late game

To me, it would seem easily aliens are worse early game - pretty early on you get krakens that even when green will basically one shot the best cruiser you have. In CiV the best barbs could have was what tech the lead player unlocked so usually at worst in early game the barb was 1 unit level higher but wouldn't on shot you like a kraken to your gunboats or cruisers

Mid game - not that barbs are problem by then per se, but relative to possible impact, I'd give them edge over aliens because there is no ultrasonic fence to keep barbs from pillaging your un defended cities, and no reverse polarity to make trade routes immune. Also as long as aliens are green they generally won't chase you or attack at best 50-50 even if you move right next to them (except nest)

Late game, again not that they cause problems, but relative to barbs, I'd give aliens the edge because by then in CiV the only place barbs spawn is way out polar caps or other remote locations, whereas in BE the aliens can pop wherever those xeno nodes used to be.

Not relative to separate game impact but ala predator vs alien matchup - if aliens and barbs were civs that dueled each other, the barbs would be annihilated early on while they were still using clubs and spears by the krakens and manticores

But if the barbs could just hang on, they'd eventually win since they tech up to max tech while aliens basically stuck with less than affinity 4 level units forever.

 

[Eji1700]

Barbs become too easy to deal with, even though they tech up, too fast to ever be an issue. The only thought I give to barbs is if i'm going to be farming them for culture or not or have some civ specific reason to do likewise. Beyond that they're basically a non issues/factor for 90% of the game(and barely an issue in the other 10%. More just a punishment for sloppy play).

Aliens have a much more interesting feel, but it doesn't help that you just get the plopped down as is, and they never progress. I'd love if they could track individual nests, and have the aliens change and mutate depending on what happens around them. If you're being overly hostile but don't wipe that "hive" out, they start getting stronger and more lethal, while if you're getting them to assimilate maybe they go another route or something. I'd love it if they could actually start attacking cities with siege worms and krakens if you tick them off enough, at the very least(or maybe that's possible? i've killed tons and never seen them go orange?).

Either way, even as 2d as aliens are, they're still better than barbs. My only issue is that the starting soldier is basically useless, as you can't really military rush other civs, and aliens will eat that poor jerk alive, so you might as well get any of the other starts(which boost your econ) and be done with it.

 

[Andy06r]

Either way, even as 2d as aliens are, they're still better than barbs. My only issue is that the starting soldier is basically useless, as you can't really military rush other civs, and aliens will eat that poor jerk alive, so you might as well get any of the other starts(which boost your econ) and be done with it.

The starting soldier is a free marine once you get one affinity in anything, which isn't hard to get.

Gift one, build one, and outpost quest for 3 marines? Works good for scavenging.

 

[Victus Mortuus]

I just downloaded a cool mod that makes them a pain in the arse, hoping to use the 'Come on you Apes you wanna live forever!?" line when I'm fighting them through Purity.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=333086566&searchtext=

 

[Eji1700]

The starting soldier is a free marine once you get one affinity in anything, which isn't hard to get.

Gift one, build one, and outpost quest for 3 marines? Works good for scavenging.

Or i could gift a worker, build one faster, and still outpost quest(faster), and then probably still do the same thing and be ahead because by the time you're getting marines+scavenge you've basically wasted having the starting soldier, and could've just used a worker and then taken the economic snowballing he gives and run with it(which would've at least equaled a soldier, if not more).

The problem is that while you can rush marines and scavenge(which in and of itself is conditional), by the time you have, I still think the worker would've been a better choice, even if you follow the same tech/culture path. At the very start the only advantage he gives you is the ability to act like a second, god awful, recon.

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

Aliens have a much more interesting feel, but it doesn't help that you just get the plopped down as is, and they never progress.

SMAC had a very interesting way around this problem, was to have alien fighting be on a different dimension than pure base unit strength. It was 'psychic battle' (they were mind worms) and so the key stat was not base strength, but how veteran/hardened a unit it was. Now, as the game progressed you built barracks and such and got ideology beliefs that bumped it, so you kept up with the aliens, but in general a super-hardened wimpy soldier would be better than a newb advanced tank.

Not sure why they didn't do that this time 'round.

 

[Stalker0]

To me the big difference is in the water.

Ship combat right now is extremely offense oriented. It is quite common for one side to kill the other in a single shot. As such, the water aliens I find the biggest pain...as they will kill often trade routes and ships easier than their land equivalents.

 

[Ryoga]

It is very hard to compare the two because they are very different.

-Barbarian strength scales with time as well as yours. Wiping out a camp is more or less the same difficulty regardless of the game turn
-Alien strength is fixed, but of various degrees depending on the unit. Wiping out nests is almost impossible at the start of the game, but it becomes incredibly easy as soon as you get your first affinity specific unit.

-Barbiarian units are more or less equivalent to your units.
-Alien units are unique and their peculiarities can be exploited. Siege worms are absolutely insanely strong, but their one move per turn makes it possible to slowly kill them with rangers. Kraken are even stronger but as long as you stay on the shore you can snipe them with impunity.

-There is a limit of 2 barbarian units plus 1 defender per barbarian camp, which makes barbarians a relatively small disturbance unless there's several camps in the proximity
-An alien nest can spawn a lot more, I haven't counted but it is... a lot. Moreover aliens spawn at an increased rate.

-Barbarian are always aggressive. Exploration is often a pain because barbarians are likely to kill your scout if you are not careful or lucky.
-Aliens are not always aggressive. If you play nice with them, they'll play nice with you. Aliens won't kill your explorer ever if you stay out of their nests, which makes exploration a lot easier, they will also not kill your workers as long as they are on your territory. Aliens will refrain from attacking your basic soldier for the simple fact they don't see it as either a menace nor an easy prey. You can literally wade through a sea of aliens without ever being attacked. Now sea dragons and Kraken are another issue. They will always attack your units but will not attack your embarked explorer.

-there is no way to affect barbarians, your relationship with them will always be the same, you can't change their behavior in any way.
-You can force aliens to stay out of your territory early on, you can also make your trade routes immune to them. You can even befriend aliens thus bringing the chances of being attacked by them to a zero.

-Barbarians do not always kill, they capture workers and settlers. This can be very advantageous sometimes. You can get workers for free or a diplomacy boost.
-Aliens either ignore you or kill you. There are however still a few benefits in killing them due to quests.


So to conclude, how can I even say which are worse on the early game? The aliens are absolutely stronger, they are far more numerous, but they aren't even a threat if you leave them alone. It just means that some territories won't be accessible.

 

[aguliondew]

Think of aliens like a city state that attacks anyone to close to their nest. Stations are like barbarians huts they can not do much and are easy to kill. So far I have not seen aliens turn red on me from killing them. I have seen them turn red when I made the mind flower.