TIMELINE: A Civilization concept by Lord Lakely

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

what is the Carthaginian symbol’s name and meaning?

Looks like a Murex snail shell, who could produce dyes which were used to make Tyrian purple.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Are we in for another cycle of ' ::ryansinbela is wrong:: // 'oh WOW :gobsmacked:' // ::ryansinbela is right:: / I KNEW IT!!! ::fistpump::'?

odds look... auspicious.

I wonder what the two English leader can be, two monarchs or one queen + one prime minister? If I had to guess it’d be Lizzy and her father, Henry VIII

I am so proud of you <3

edit: omg so much to reply to. Well lemme get this post in first though.:

First Look: the BRITISH Civilization

The British Isles have been inhabited by many different people: Picts, Welsh ,Brythons, Angles, Saxons, Romans, Normans, Danes. As such, 'British' culture is an amalgamation of Celtic folklore, Norse placenames, Roman urban planning and Norman aristocracy. Even to this day, the 'British' consist of several ethnicities: English, Scottish, Welsh and Cornish, united by the large island they all share underneath the Union Jack. Backed by a strong navy and a powerful strategic position, the British became one of the biggest colonial powers the world had ever seen, expanding across the globe to create one of the largest empires of all time, one on which the sun truly never set.

The British ability is called 'Albion', and gives them a boost towards maritime warfare: A portion of the Warships the British build do not count towards the Force Limit, nor to the Supply Limit of their navies. This allows the British to field massive navies. Vegetated tiles are also key towards the British - if improved with a Camp they yield more Production. If cleared while building a Naval Unit however, it'll rush the production of that unit so that it always finishes on the next turn.

The Man-O-War is the British Unique unit. This powerful Renaissance Era Warship has higher Strength, HP and Morale, for the same cost as a regular Frigate.

The Minor Power associated with the British is Sodor (Industrious): +1 Production on Martime buildings.

(Sodor's association with Britain is temporary, and will last until a Norse or Celtic Civ is added).

Civ Ability: ALBION

• +1 Production on Camp-like improvements.
• The first Warship added to a Navy doesn't count towards that Navy's Supply Limit
• The first Warship you build, and every third Warship after that doesn't count towards the Force Limit.
• Clearing a Feature while recruiting a Naval Unit counts as Rushing that unit to 99% of its total cost.

Civ Unique: MAN-O-WAR
Unique Warship, replaces the Frigate.

• +5 Strength (Melee) compared to the Frigate
• +10% HP compared to the Frigate
• +10% Morale compared to the Frigate

British Faction: ENGLAND

Often considered synonymous with 'Britain', England is the most high profile county of the United Kingdom - Forged from seven anglo-saxon kingdoms into a true 'Angleterre', England knew a rough start: ravaged by Vikings and invading Normans, the rural English empire eventually blossomed into an agricultural power, backed by a decentralized layout - each county had its own market towns, spreading commerce around and encouraging growth in tight knit community. England's sprawling wool pastures and woodlands provided them with the resources needed to build a large navy, their strategic location an opportunity to sail west and colonize.

The English ablility is called Magna Carta: Improvements that are placed in a triangle with two other, identifical improvements give major adjacency bonuses to each other, which stack with other adjacencies. These improvements cannot be pillaged. Additionally, England's Cities support one additional Hamlet, which upon completion gives extra population and growth to their city.

England's hamlets are further improved by the Market Cross, an economic building that can only be placed inside Hamlets and its evolutions. When completed, the Market Cross upgrades the Hamlet or Village into a Market Town. Market Crosses yield Coin, provide Coin adjacency to other buildings inside the Town, and Food adjacency with other Mercantile buildings. Trading Posts gain Culture adjacency with the Town it's built in, and the Town also counts as a Neighbourhood District, meaning that all buildings also count as Residences, giving bonus Housing per Building. It's a powerful building that allows England to grow tall on the basis of their trade and agriculture.

England also has two potential unique units - the Sea Dog is a Light Melee Warship that can capture opposing Warships when it defeats them in naval combat, and is slightly stronger when flanking the opponent. The Yeoman is England's land unique unit, a Pike & Shot that counts as an Archer, rather than a Gunpower unit. The Yeoman can attack in melee with no penalty and gains bonus range on its Bombardement attack when garrisoned inside a City.

Faction Overview - ENGLAND
Default Jersey: White on Dark Magenta
Adjective: English
Your in-game name is 'ENGLAND'

Spawn: The English settler spawns in a Grasslands Biome, adjacent to a Navigable River and within a 1 tile range of a coast.
Terrain Bias: Coast, Cliff, Vegetation
Resource Bias: Iron, Wool.

City List
Capital: London
Core: Bristol, Canterbury, Oxford, Norwich, York
Imperial: Birmingham, Brighton, Dover, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Nottingham, Newcastle, Salisbury & Winchester
Other: Andover, Aylesbury, Bamburgh, Bath, Bedford, Berwick, Beverley, Birkenhead, Bishop's Lynn, Blackpool, Buckingham, Bury St. Edmunds, Cambridge, Carlisle, Chelmsford, Cheltenham, Chippenham, Coventry, Croydon, Derby, Durham, Ely, Exeter, Gloucester, Hastings, Hertfort, Hull, Ipswich, Lancaster, Leicsester, Lichfield, Lincoln, Maryport, Middlesborough, Oakham, Oldham, Peterborough, Plymouth, Portsmouth, Reading, Ripon, Rochester, Scarborough, Sheffield, Shrewsbury, Southampton, Tamworth, Thetfort, Torquay, Truro, Trowbridge, Warwick, Westminster, Windsor, Worcester, Wroxeter & Yarmouth.


Faction Ability: MAGNA CARTA

• All Cities support one additional Hamlet, VIllage or Town.
• Hamlets, Villages and Towns add +1 Population and +5% Growth to their City when completed.
• Improvement Triangles of the same type have +1 Yield adjacency with each other and cannot be pillaged.

Unique Unit - SEA DOG
Unique Light Warship, replaces the Sloop

• +5 Strength against other Light Warships compared to the Sloop
• +2 Offence when Flanking.
• Can capture opposing ships after defeating them in combat.
• Mutually Exclusive with the Yeoman.

Unique Unit - YEOMAN
Light Infantry and Archer, replaces the Pike & Shot

• Has a Ranged Bombardement attack at 1 Range that is equally strong to its melee attack.
• Has +1 Range on the Bombardement attack if stationed as a Garrison
• No melee penalty (unlike other Archers)
• Has an Archer tag. (Archers can upgrade into this, and anti-Archer bonuses apply).
• Does not count as a Gun unit (unlike the Pike & Shot)
• Mutually exclusive with the Sea Dog.

note specifically for @Boris Gudenuf : yeomen use billhooks in melee combat and longbows in ranged combat


Unique Structure - MARKET CROSS
Tier 1 Mercantile building with no equivalent

• +4 base Coin
• +1 additional Coin adjacency with other buildings in the same District
• +1 additional Food adjacency with Mercantile buildings in the same District
• +1 additional Culture form Trading Posts adjacent to the Town.
• Can only be built in Hamlets, Villages or Towns
• when built, immediately evolves the Hamlet or Village into a Town
• The Towns that have this count as Neighbourhood Districts (Every Building in this District counts as a Residence)

HENRY VIII leads ENGLAND in TIMELINE

For better or for worse, Henry VIII is one of England's most infamous kings. Known for his six marriages and the split from the Catholic Church, Henry VIII was nothing short of controversy. However, he was also a visionary - he made efforts to build up England's navy to rival that of Spain, and reformed the Church of England. While his daughter Elizabeth I would later streamline these stages during her own reign, Henry helped shape England's future identity as a European power.

Henry's ability showcases his religious reforms. Called 'Defence of the Seven Sacraments', Henry is prohibited from earning Great Prophets or building Monastery improvements. Instead, he's free to modify any Religion that naturally spreads to his lands by expending Clerics, and is free to add any tenets to the expended Cleric's Religion. This allows him to almost fully customize the bonuses he receives from Religion in his empire, rather than being restricted by each Religion's unique mechanics. He can instead mix and match as he sees fit. The downside to all this religious reforming, is that Henry has worse relations with whoever controls that Religion's Holy City, unless of course, he controls it himself.

Henry also receives an extra Amenity from having a Pantheon, and from each Tenet added to his State Religion.

Leader Ability: DEFENCE OF THE SEVEN SACRAMENTS

• +1 Miscellaneous Amenity in every City from Pantheons and every Religious Tenet added to the State Religion.
• Unlocks the ability to use Clerics to Discover Religious Tenets from any Major Religion, and add them to England's State Religion. This gives a penalty to Relations with the other Players following that Religion.
• All Religious Tenet slots in his State Religion are Wildcard slots for Henry VIII
• Malus: Cannot earn Great Prophets or build Monasteries.

Spoiler a note on Religions: :

Religion works like the Social Policy system in Civ6, but new Tenets can only be added in two ways: if the Religion has fewer than seven, anyone with that Religion as their State Religion can add one by expending a Great Prophet. If the Religion has more than seven, only the owner of the Holy City can add or remove Tenets. Tenets are limited to their category and to their associated Religion (although there are generic Tenets that apply to more than one, if not all Religions).

Players that follow the same Religion can nominate Tenets to be added, but this requires a Liturgical Council vote (sort of a proto World Congress?). If not accepted, they can force the change anyway, creating a Schism (this is how Denominations work in the game, and every Majority Religion (other than Tengrii) has this mechanic.)

Henry VIII's ability breaks all of that up. He can use Clerics to do the same thing, but cannot actively found the Religion himself (he's a more proactive Mvemba if you will). He can also mix and match as he likes, even if he does not control the Holy City. This usually results in him having a different Denomination (a variety of the same Major Religion but with a few different Tenets), straining his relations with other followers of that Religion.

It should also be noted that each Religion is very unique and distinct from each other. Tengrii can synchronize with other Religions (as it does in EU4, actually). All Major Religions also have a fixed Grand Temple and Founder Belief that cannot be changed. Tenets come in different categories, and each Religion has different types of slots (like how every different Government in Civ6 has different card categories) they fit into.

I feel like this makes Religion feel more... involved? It's a bunch of modifiers atop of your map play and town development, but it's no longer a bag of pick-and-mix. Chance is involved in determining which Tenets you find (see this as a 'See Three, Pick One' type of Discover like you see in deckbuilding games such as Hearthstone) and the pool each Major Religion fishes from is unique to that Religion. Some Religions have similar Tenets (particularly Islam which shares tenets with Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism and Hinduism) but they discover those independently from each other, and can as such both use these Tenets if they do find them.

It's a bit of a tangent, but to sum it up: Religion is no longer fully customisable. Every Religion works like a class in a deckbuilder, and Henry's ability allows him to cheat at that game, at the cost of pissing off the other players at the table.

Personality & Strategies:

Default Personality: Erratic (Cautious ruler)
Alternate Personalities: Aggressive, Xenophobic
Default Strategies: Financier & Diplomat
Language: English

Agenda: Six Brides

• He starts at +1 Relations towards all Female leaders; all Female leaders start at -1 Relations towards him. (Lothario)
• Relations gain or loss is doubled towards Female Leaders (on both sides) (Vixen or Shrew, all shall be courted)
• Feels increasedly threatened by male leaders. (Unwanted rivals towards his quest for an heir)
• Approves of Players that neglect Faith (Dissolutions of the monasteries)
• Approves of Players that don't pose a threat towards him (Narcissist that things the world's out to get him)
• Disapproves of Players that focus on Faith (Prefers own view on theology over prescribed visions)
• Disapproves of Players that look dangerous to him, especially if male. (Sees enemies everywhere)
• Improved Flavour towards accumulating Coin and Prestige (Loves a good banquet)
• Improved Flavour towards befriending and allying with female leaders (Wants to secure a strong heir)
• Decreased Flavour towards Faith Generation (Devout when it suits him)
• Decreased Flavour towards befriending and allying with male leaders (Considers them rivals for his succession)

Henry's characterization is that of a hedonist and a womanizer. Like Eleanor and CdM, he'll be shown consuming alcohol in most of his cutscenes. If befriended, he'll be superficially charming and pompous. If annoyed, he'll behave like a hotheaded jock, not dissimilar to Civ6's denouncement intersitials. I also want him to appear fairly young, around the time of his marriage to Catherine of Aragon.

Spoiler Addendum on Henry VIII :

I hope you also understand why I had to give England two leaders. If you don't: (1) it's IMPOSSIBLE for me to gauge how good Henry's kit is (2) I definitely chose him for his interesting history/personality/accomplishments, less so his actual competence (3) he's arguably the worst human to ever sit on the English throne... so yeah. I think he works EXCELLENTLY as a Civilization Leader/Figurehead because his legacy is that inspiring (if horrid), just not as the ONLY English representation in the game.

and on that note, let's introduce an actual GOOD English leader:


ELIZABETH also leads ENGLAND in TIMELINE

As Henry VIII's second daughter, Elizabeth was an unlikely ruler for England. Inheriting the kingdom after her brother Edward and her sister Mary, Queen of Scots, Elizabeth was faced with religious and civil turmoil upon her ascencion, as well as an impending war with Spain. In a precarious situation, Elizabeth adopted a policy of prudence. With the help of her loyal ministers, she worked to pacify civil unrest, completed her father's ambition for a large fleet, and advocated religious unity between anglicans and catholics. Her fleet managed to defeat the Spanish armada, establishing naval supermacy. Her domestic efforts led to a period of near-unprecedented stability, ushering in the Elizabethan Era, a golden age of economics, expansion and culture launched England as a superpower.

Elizabeth's ability is called Gloriana. She receives bonus recruitment speed towards Naval units. Additionally, every Hamlet added to a CIty reduces the cost of Civil Servants by a small percentage. Additionally, Elizabeth is allowed to recruit Civil Servants with Production, rather than their associated yield. This bonus to management allows Elizabeth players to support their empire whenever they see fit, be it by spreading their culture (Bards), improving their diplomatic relations (Agents), Scientific endeavours (Field Scientists) or religious policy (Clerics).


Leader Ability: GLORIANA

• +50% Warship Recruitment speed.
• All Civil Servants have their Cost reduced by 5% for every Hamlet (or its evolutions) in the City.
• All Civil Servants can be Recruited with Production as well as their associated Yield.

Personality & Strategies:

Default Personality: Erratic (Cautious ruler)
Alternate Personalities: Docile, Xenophobic
Default Strategies: Financier & Warlord
Language: English

Agenda: VIDEO ET TACEO

• Improved Flavour towards recruiting Naval Units (Her Majesty's Senior Service)
• Improved Flavour towards recruiting Civil Servants (increased priority given to Bards and Agents) (Appreciates the delicate arts)
• Improved Flavour towards improving Amenities (Elizabethan Age)
• Improved Flavour towards Expansion (Sun never Sets)
• Decrease Flavour towards Prestige (Dislikes threading on toes)
• Prioritizes building Maritime, Mercantile and Recreational buildings, as well as Workshops. (Old English Infrastructure)
• Approves of Players that remain neutral, and have few allies or enemies, not counting Elizabeth. (Extremely cautious ruler)
• Approves of Players that keep their realm stable, and don't experience negative effects due to low amenities. (Understands that stability is a fragile notion)
• Disapproves of Players with many enemies or many allies. (Reluctant to pick a side)
• Disapproves of Players that neglect Amenities, and experience bad events. (Seen to many revolts in her lifetime)

Elizabeth's characterization (concurring with her default Erratic personality) is defined by her mercurial demeanor. She will -on most occasions- appear aloof, cautious and timid, even when befriended. If annoyed however, she'll become irascible, childish and petty. Expect shoes to be thrown in every corner of the room if you get on her bad side!

~ ~ ~

The British thrive on large islands, being able to construct the largest navy out of any Civ. Be sure to use England's magna Carta ability to plan your improvements carefully, so you can maximize your space for bonus yields and good Hamlet placements, which allows English Cities to grow large and bountiful. Elizabeth and Henry each have a bonus that can help you manage your populous empire, via Civil Servants and Customisable Religion, respectively. With Yeomen on land, and Seadogs and Man O Wars in the sea, the British can hold any landmass with ease.

Will Britannia rule the waves under your dominion? What mark will the British leave on your TIMELINE?

~ ~ ~

There's a few posts I'd like to respond to, so feel free to ask questions in the meantime. I'll answer them before I start on the next First Look. (which will be another Religious themed Civ)

 

[Lord Lakely]

I like the concept OP, it matches a lot of what I had in mind myself. That said I would lean further into Factions and allow - but not impose - a faction change when a heroic or dark age happens. So, America could have the Republic, the Confederacy and the Thirteen Colonies, France could see the Frankish Kingdom, the Empire and Gaul; at the price of perhaps fewer Civs to start with.

I've had an idea similar to this *after* posting this thread. We could learn into maybe an 'Identity' mechanic that replaces Social Policies, where your overarching Civ takes on aspects from its real-life past: America could be split into the Federal Republic, the Thirteen Colonies and one of the more prominent states such as Pennsylvania or Texas; The American leader would then be associated with one of these cultural identities (e.g. William Penn for Pennsylvania, Franklin for Thirteen Colonies, etc), giving you a bonus in development towards *that* identity if chosen, in addition to their generic bonus.

Some factions might even be shared, such as Mexico between Aztecs and Spanish, or the Ottoman Empire between Turks and Greeks, or Colonial America between Brits and Americans, or Francia between the French and Germans. An interesting mechanic could be that if two Civs choose the same faction at the turn of an age, that might provoke an immediate civil war until one side prevails and the other reverts or changes to their third option, with both accruing a prestige/loyalty/diplomatic penalty until that occurs.

The initial plan for the Franks was to make them a faction shared between France and Germany (well I lie. The actual initial plan was to have the Franks replace France and Germany in the line-up (the free spot would have went to Armenia)), and I may retcon that if I ever get around to design an Expansion Pack for this. Personally though, I do like the idea of French Franks and Germanic Teutons due to it being the same split in AoE2, making it recognisable for gamers.

As an aside, the Franks were at some point led by Clovis as well (when I decided to add Prussia to the base-game line-up over Armenia), but then I reverted back to Charlemagne because he's just *that* iconic of a leader choice to me.

The Civ-Fac model does mean smaller Civs that wouldn't necessarily see the light of day can be implemented as factions of a more broadly defined civilization. Think: various North American tribes. Hard to implement evolutive Tribes in Civ7; wouldn't be hard at all if you can choose different Tribes as factions of a greater civilization with little regard for chronology.

Native American tribes can be implemented perfectly though. You can always zoom out on the language families when in doubt. The Iroquois, Cree and Huron can be grouped into the Algonquian Civilization, while the Mississipian Civilization can have its descendants such as the Creek and Shawnee as its factions.

One thing I take issue with immediately tho is giving Americans the Sherman tank. Any UU that comes later than industrial is basically irrelevant. Might be best to go with marines (est. 1775), monitors (1861), or heck even, frontiersmen (1600s). Hell, perhaps all 3, in accordance with the chosen faction!

I disagree. Tanks are still very useful in most Civ games, and America really is a *late game* military power by design. They should go to war basically around the time they become a influencemonger in the World Congress, and use it to punish warmongering Civs aiming for a Scientific or Culture victory (towards which America itself receives no true bonuses.)

And four features that are dearest to my heart are migration, vassalization, free cities (self-governing but loyal) and decolonization. In the latter case, a World Congress resolution-emergency might unite multiple Civs to liberate another Civ's cities that are on a continent far from its capital, and on completion, spur the creation of a same-Civ-different-faction NPC, with the same degree of tech and cultural advancement as the Civ it just split from and treasury/military in the form of donations provided by the states party to the emergency.

Add-on: As for diplomatic victory, the way we're seeing it IRL, is political integration. So perhaps a cascade of resolutions placing a Civ at the head of an international institution such as the WTO, IMF, ILO, UNPK and UNHRC might serve as stepping stones before a One-World-Government vote, or perhaps a regional government first akin to the EU (ie, imposing vassalage on the Civ's neighbors). Each of these organizations would grant the Presidency the ability to initiate resolutions relating to commerce, culture, production, military emergencies, food and prestige.

Migration and Cultural integration are planned for... the third Expansion Pack? The first one is Governments and the second one is Resource Production chains, while the third aims to be about civilian management (kind of a Vox Populi, if you will?)

There are plenty of options for the World Congress, but I think it needs a good basis first. The plan is to make the resolutions and the voting thereof similar to SMAC - a small grace period that allows for collusion and bribery.

Diplomatic Victory itself is meant to end the game prematurely from a winning position, if the player chooses to.

Whereas military victory might be conquest or vassalage of all other Civs. This substantially reduces the burden of tedious world domination but firmly grounds this victory in military might. And just for map flavor: Allied Civs share glowing border color (strongest partner's color); vassals' territory is marked by the suzerain's color in diagonal lines. Player's enemies have glowing red borders

There are three ways to win Military Victory - one is indeed to conquer and/or vassalize everyone and make yourself the last 'free' major power. I'm also keeping the 'control all original capitals' condition as an alternative. Finally, on larger maps, an objective to core 75% of all Land Tiles, is added as it's almost impossible to conquer the world on those maps.

Add-on 2: also, since the topic of city siege hasn't been addressed yet, I would suggest the simple capitulation of a city without combat when there isn't a unit present to defend it. Only possible when no urban cores are garrisoned. This allows city owners to prevent destruction of their own cities. Especially useful in the case of France's UA, as an example. And it synergizes well with your conscript concept, since that means a city can always generate a unit rather cheaply and swiftly if capitulation is not desired.

The way I see sieges is simple: capture the City Centre. All units garrisoned inside the city will be stationed there. Defeat the stack, and you conquer the city.

However, I also see conquest as something modular. Hamlets, Towns and Villages exert cultural pressure of their own (based on the buildings you place there) and you can conquer them individually as well. Doing so will weaken the City, as it will lose a district and all buildings inside the district, plus any land under influence from that Hamlet, Village or Town. Garissons inside a Hamlet also do not count towards the City's own garrison.

ftr, a 'Garrison" basically is just free units that you can stack on top of each other in the City Centre (or a Hamlet, Fortress or some other improvement that grants Garrison slots). Supply rules still apply to those tiles, but the more Garrison space you have, the larger the defending stack can be. It should be hard to capture a City with just one Army. You'll need multiple stacks to break through the defending units.

But naturally if a City is fully undefended you can of course waltz in for basically free. Some buildings like the Town Watch will spawn some rudimentary defenders (militia if you will), so that the city doesn't immediately fall to a rogue horseman.

what is the Carthaginian symbol’s name and meaning?

As Hetaroi noted, it's the shell of a murex snail.

The historically 'correct' symbol for Carthage is Tanit, but I like this one better, so...

 

[Ryansinbela]

Aren’t the Haudenosaunee Iroquoian

Also Sodor? Is Thomas the Tank Engine in the game

 

[Lord Lakely]

I do believe the Thomas the Tank Engine's Sodor is located right next to the Isle of Man anyway? Memory's hazy on that one.

 

[Ryansinbela]

View attachment 744674


I do believe the Thomas the Tank Engine's Sodor is located right next to the Isle of Man anyway? Memory's hazy on that one.

Just learned you were referring to an actual kingdom

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Native American tribes can be implemented perfectly though. You can always zoom out on the language families when in doubt. The Iroquois, Cree and Huron can be grouped into the Algonquian Civilization, while the Mississipian Civilization can have its descendants such as the Creek and Shawnee as its factions.

The Iroquois aren't Algonquian.
Iroquois should in fact be their own civilization and then could have separate Haudenosaunee, Huron, or even Cherokee factions, Cherokee being an Iroquoian language.

 

[Lord Lakely]

The Iroquois aren't Algonquian.
Iroquois should in fact be their own civilization and then could have separate Haudenosaunee, Huron, or even Cherokee factions, Cherokee being an Iroquoian language.

I'm not sure about conflating the Cherokee and the Iroquois, but the Iroquois Confederacy is on the longlist for the Factions I want to include in the first Expansion. :3 It will be its own Civ too, yeah (I will likely go for Attawarandon as the associated Minor Power; I don't feel entirely comfortable making their mortal enemy (the Huron) their associate.)

But I haven't fully researched it yet, since I have bigger fish to fry right now.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'm not sure about conflating the Cherokee and the Iroquois, but the Iroquois Confederacy is on the longlist for the Factions I want to include in the first Expansion. :3 It will be its own Civ too, yeah (I will likely go for Attawarandon as the associated Minor Power; I don't feel entirely comfortable making their mortal enemy (the Huron) their associate.)

Sure, I just meant it would make more sense to lump the Cherokee within an Iroquoian civilization than the Haudenosaunee within an Algonquian civ.
I think it might be more interesting having the Huron as the Minor Power associate. I mean it's not like England was peaceful with any of their other possible British counterparts throughout history.

 

[Acepox]

I've had an idea similar to this *after* posting this thread. We could learn into maybe an 'Identity' mechanic that replaces Social Policies, where your overarching Civ takes on aspects from its real-life past: America could be split into the Federal Republic, the Thirteen Colonies and one of the more prominent states such as Pennsylvania or Texas; The American leader would then be associated with one of these cultural identities (e.g. William Penn for Pennsylvania, Franklin for Thirteen Colonies, etc), giving you a bonus in development towards *that* identity if chosen, in addition to their generic bonus.

I sort of like it, but also I'm also wary of stepping away from the model of Leader as Player. If the leader changes, it's as if you weren't playing against the same person/entity anymore. Feels odd to me.

The initial plan for the Franks was to make them a faction shared between France and Germany (well I lie. The actual initial plan was to have the Franks replace France and Germany in the line-up (the free spot would have went to Armenia)), and I may retcon that if I ever get around to design an Expansion Pack for this. Personally though, I do like the idea of French Franks and Germanic Teutons due to it being the same split in AoE2, making it recognisable for gamers.

As an aside, the Franks were at some point led by Clovis as well (when I decided to add Prussia to the base-game line-up over Armenia), but then I reverted back to Charlemagne because he's just *that* iconic of a leader choice to me.

Wait so you DID intend to have shared factions? Is that still in the works or canned entirely as a concept?

Native American tribes can be implemented perfectly though. You can always zoom out on the language families when in doubt. The Iroquois, Cree and Huron can be grouped into the Algonquian Civilization, while the Mississipian Civilization can have its descendants such as the Creek and Shawnee as its factions.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant.

I disagree. Tanks are still very useful in most Civ games, and America really is a *late game* military power by design. They should go to war basically around the time they become a influencemonger in the World Congress, and use it to punish warmongering Civs aiming for a Scientific or Culture victory (towards which America itself receives no true bonuses.)

Oh, Idk, America has such a rich warmongering history prior to the gilded age and even prior to independence!

Migration and Cultural integration are planned for... the third Expansion Pack? The first one is Governments and the second one is Resource Production chains, while the third aims to be about civilian management (kind of a Vox Populi, if you will?)

There are plenty of options for the World Congress, but I think it needs a good basis first. The plan is to make the resolutions and the voting thereof similar to SMAC - a small grace period that allows for collusion and bribery.

Diplomatic Victory itself is meant to end the game prematurely from a winning position, if the player chooses to.



There are three ways to win Military Victory - one is indeed to conquer and/or vassalize everyone and make yourself the last 'free' major power. I'm also keeping the 'control all original capitals' condition as an alternative. Finally, on larger maps, an objective to core 75% of all Land Tiles, is added as it's almost impossible to conquer the world on those maps.

That makes me think about the diminishing returns of empire. I'm not sure I've read anything about it so far ITT, like, would the system incentivize playing tall, or wide, have provoke rebellions or loyalty problems in large empires, etc.

The way I see sieges is simple: capture the City Centre. All units garrisoned inside the city will be stationed there. Defeat the stack, and you conquer the city.

However, I also see conquest as something modular. Hamlets, Towns and Villages exert cultural pressure of their own (based on the buildings you place there) and you can conquer them individually as well. Doing so will weaken the City, as it will lose a district and all buildings inside the district, plus any land under influence from that Hamlet, Village or Town. Garissons inside a Hamlet also do not count towards the City's own garrison.

Love that! I've always wanted that to be a thing in Civ - and it was, to some degree with citadels, but those felt a bit clunky.

ftr, a 'Garrison" basically is just free units that you can stack on top of each other in the City Centre (or a Hamlet, Fortress or some other improvement that grants Garrison slots). Supply rules still apply to those tiles, but the more Garrison space you have, the larger the defending stack can be. It should be hard to capture a City with just one Army. You'll need multiple stacks to break through the defending units.

But naturally if a City is fully undefended you can of course waltz in for basically free. Some buildings like the Town Watch will spawn some rudimentary defenders (militia if you will), so that the city doesn't immediately fall to a rogue horseman.

Point being tho, sometimes that may just be what you want! If, you don't want your buildings to get destroyed. And a rogue horseman, if I understand correctly, would not survive long if then surrounded and besieged. Or, alternatively, even after having been occupied, a city may resist against weak, isolated occupiers until it has been pacified somehow (Civ 5 had Courthouse, as an example of pacification module).

 

[Lord Lakely]

Sure, I just meant it would make more sense to lump the Cherokee within an Iroquoian civilization than the Haudenosaunee within an Algonquian civ.
I think it might be more interesting having the Huron as the Minor Power associate. I mean it's not like England was peaceful with any of their other possible British counterparts throughout history.

The longterm England plan is to have one of the anglo-saxon kingdoms as its associated Civ. I just liked the Kingdom of the Isles more for the limited basegame line-up :3

I sort of like it, but also I'm also wary of stepping away from the model of Leader as Player. If the leader changes, it's as if you weren't playing against the same person/entity anymore. Feels odd to me.

No, you misunderstand. What I'm proposing is that the game ships with one leader for each Civ, and that leader has one prefered faction/identity he synergizes with more. additional leaders would be released at later dates.

So a Greek Civ could have a Hellenic, Macedonian and Pontic cultural tree, with unique abilities, units and structures that are unlocked, and you can of course mix-and-match if that's what you prefer. It would start with one leader however (say Alexander - Macedon), and down the road of development a Hellenic leader (Solon, Plato, etc) and a Pontic leader (Mithridates VI) could be added as well.

Wait so you DID intend to have shared factions? Is that still in the works or canned entirely as a concept?

I considered it. It's a hell to balance though. You're designing a faction to fit not one, but multiple Civs, and it's a challenge to make the abilities interesting and/or strong. I don't mind altering the designs for a few of the ambiguous factions (Franks, Byzantium, Mughal) a bit so that they also fit underneath a German, Greek and Persian Civ respectively. This however, is a longterm thing I can't fully commit to yet.

Oh, Idk, America has such a rich warmongering history prior to the gilded age and even prior to independence!

It does, exemplified by the most diverse line-up of unique units yet: we've had the F15, the P69 Mustang, the Minuteman, the Rough Rider, the Marine and the Navy S.E.A.L. So why not add a Tank to that line-up as well.

America is imo a Civ that really shouldn't have more than one faction, so i'm comfortable with picking bonuses across its timeline.

That makes me think about the diminishing returns of empire. I'm not sure I've read anything about it so far ITT, like, would the system incentivize playing tall, or wide, have provoke rebellions or loyalty problems in large empires, etc.

There should be some level of restriction yeah. I've admittedly not balanced it too well (I'm very much in the camp of #TeamWide as a Civ player), with restricting Tall with a hard limit and Residence, and maybe not restricting Wide enough. Efficiency is what counters wide, with lower yields the further away your cities are from the Palace, but admittedly, you CAN counter that by building Courthouses and establishing City Connections via roads and Trade Routes. (the Mongols have another, unique way to eliminate the Efficiency penalty). It's always difficult to balance such things, and that's why most games have a playtesting phase.

Point being tho, sometimes that may just be what you want! If, you don't want your buildings to get destroyed. And a rogue horseman, if I understand correctly, would not survive long if then surrounded and besieged. Or, alternatively, even after having been occupied, a city may resist against weak, isolated occupiers until it has been pacified somehow (Civ 5 had Courthouse, as an example of pacification module).

Recklessness should be punished, but I also feel like cavalry is already too powerful in Civ as is. I firmly believe Cavalry's advantage should be speed and raiding, not capturing random settlements with one unit. (The way I see it, Infantry should have the highest base Strength out of all units, which they trade for a lack of mobility. Cavalry have lower Strength, but more speed.) Capturing an undefended hamlet however, as outlined above, should be doable however.

As far as occupation and pacification is concerned - All occupied cities have a massive penalty to Approval. Garrisoning units into the City reduces it (and the Safavids completely eliminate it if their Garrisons are full - easy for them to accomplish because their Garrisons do not count towards the Force Limit, nor cost maintenance AND boost yields). Approval is tied to productivity, so Occupied cities are slow to build and reinforce. There's no quelling like there is in Civ3 though. Occupied Cities experience extra War Weariness indefinitely, until a Peace Treaty is signed, and the City is assigned either to its conquerer or back to its previous owner.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The longterm England plan is to have one of the anglo-saxon kingdoms as its associated Civ. I just liked the Kingdom of the Isles more for the limited basegame line-up :3

Well even then Anglo-Saxons were subjugated by the Normans, who then became England proper.
I'd love to see your interpretation of Anglo-Saxon England. I've been waiting to see that represented in a historical 4X game ever since I got into watching the Last Kingdom and reading the novels based on the show.
Plus having the Anglo-Saxons in the Antiquity Age in Civ 7 seems like a long shot, and I doubt they'd be put in Exploration alongside the Normans.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Well even then Anglo-Saxons were subjugated by the Normans, who then became England proper.
I'd love to see your interpretation of Anglo-Saxon England. I've been waiting to see that represented in a historical 4X game ever since I got into watching the Last Kingdom and reading the novels based on the show.
Plus having the Anglo-Saxons in the Antiquity Age in Civ 7 seems like a long shot, and I doubt they'd be put in Exploration alongside the Normans.

I do hope they're added -in some capacity- to Civ7; but I also don't think they're essential to Civ7's Antiquity line-up - they don't plug any meaningful gaps, nor set up any important Civs besides Normans and America. An Anglo-Saxon leader otoh... Alfred and Aethelflaed would both go hard in this game.

As far as adding them to Timeline - currently no plans towards it. The second faction for the British will absolutely be Great Britain. If I add a third, then sure, an Anglo-Saxon kingdom (led by the aforementioned Alfred or Aethelflaed) could be on the table... but also, there are so many other Civs that need to be added first.

I will post the line-up for the DLC packs after my last First Look though, as well as the longlist for the first expansion.

But first,

First Look: the ARABIAN Civilization

Hailing from the Arabian Penninsula, the Arabs are one of the most prominent ethnicities in West Asia. Rising to prominence with the invention of Islam, Arab caliphs have been able to conquer much of west Asia and north Africa, spreading their culture and new religion around. Many different dynasties ruled the Arabian caliphates, which prospered due to their strategic location on the Silk Road. Rich commercial centres arose which, due to the vast wealth being traded there, soon became vast learning centres - The Islamic Golden Ages, had begun.

Arabia's Civ bonus is called Dar al-Islam, and enhances their State Religion. For each Holy City the Arabs control, they gain bonus Strength and Morale on their units. Additionally, all Holy Cities controlled by the Arabs generate Tourists towards their State Religion, and those Pilgrims also count as Tourists. This allows the Arabians to vie for both Culture Victory objectives via their State Religion.

The Arabian Civ also has the Noria improvement - this Watermill replacement gives bonus Food when placed inside a Desert biome both on itself and adjacent tiles. Adjacent Oasis and Navigable River tiles receive Production.

Civ Ability: DAR AL-ISLAM

• Military units receive +3 STR and +5% Max Morale for each Holy City you control
• All Holy Cities controlled by you generate Pilgrim Visitors towards your State Religion
• All Pilgrims count as Tourists, and count towards both Culture Victory types.

Civ Unique: NORIA
Unique Watermill replacement.

Watermills are Infrastructure, meaning that they can exist on the same tiles as Improvements, but not other Infrastructure improvements (such as Roads)
Watermills Irrigate adjacent tiles, giving Fresh Water Bonuses to all adjacent tiles. Farm-like Improvements receive +1 base Yield from being Irrigated, as do Sawmills and Clay Pits.
Watermills also have a base yield of +2 Production.
They must be placed adjacent to a Navigable River, Lake or Canal, and only ONE Watermill can be placed per Navigable River or Canal.

For the Noria, the following changes and additions apply:

• Can be placed on Minor Rivers and next to Oasis tiles (in addition to Navigable Rivers)
• +2 Food if placed on Desert
• Aura: +1 Food on adjacent Desert tiles.
• Aura: +1 Production on adjacent Oasis and Navigable River tiles.

Faction: ABBASIDS

The Islamic Golden Age reached its zenith under the Abbasid Caliphate, a dynasty that ruled over a massive empire, spanning from Tunisia in the West to Afghanistan in the East. Its capital, Baghdad, was an unprecedented centre of learning, the apex of which was the legendary House of Wisdom. Scholars, merchants, engineers and poets all met and mingled in the streets, and the resulting of clash of ideas gave us many new inventions: algebra, chemistry, windmills, modern astronomy, and more.

The Abbasid bonus zooms in on this unique blend of science and the arts. Named 'Pearl of the Orient', after the erstwhile nickname for Baghdad, it gives massive bonuses to Great Works: Displayed Great Works provide Knowledge, and give bonus Coin to all passing Trade Routes. Additionally, Abbasid Great Works attract extra Visitors from Cities connected to where they are displayed via a Trade Route. All Tourists that visit Abbasid lands also count as Pilgrims towards the Abbasid State Religion.

The Abbasids unique structure is the Souq. This variant of the Market Hall generates bonus Visitors based on its Coin output, and provides one additional Trade Route slot to its City.
The Shakiriyya is the Abbasid unique unit. This Courser replacement is faster than a regular Courser and receives bonus Strength and healing in Desert tiles. When a Shakuriyya eliminates an enemy or pillages a tile, it recovers Morale as well.

Faction Overview - ABBASIDS
Default Jersey: Pine green on lime Green
Adjective: Abbasid
Your in-game name is 'The ABBASIDS'

Spawn: The Abbasid Settler starts inside a Desert biome, adjacent to either a Navigable River, Coast or Oasis, and adjacent to at least 1 Petroleum tile.
Terrain Bias: Desert, Navigable River, Oasis
Resource Bias: Horses, Petroleum

City List
Capital: Baghdad
Core: Basra, Damascus, Fustat, Kufa & Mecca
Imperial: Aden, Aleppo, Faiyum, Luxor, Mansoura, Mosul, Raqqah & Samarra
Other: Abadan, Al Ayn, Al Iskanderiya, Al Kunfunda, Amman, Anbar, Anjar, Aqaba, Aydhab, Benghazi, Buraydah, Damietta, Erbil, Gaza, Hajr al-Yamama, Hama, Hayfa, Hejir, Herat, Hisn Khayfa, Hofuf, Homs, Hudaida, Hulwan, Idlib, Jedda, Jibla, Latakia, Kairouan, Karbala, Kirkuk, Mahdia, Manama, Mansoura, Masyaf, Mokha, Najaf, Najran, Nizwa, Qatif, Sana'a, Shihr, Shiraz, Sohar, Tabriz, Tabuk, Tayf, Tikrit, Tripoli, Tunis, Unaizah, Uqair, Wasit, Yanbu & Zabid.

(the City lists avoids Persian/Egyptian names in the top priority slots to ensure fewer overlap with those Civs)

Faction Ability: PEARL OF THE ORIENT

• +1 Knowledge on all displayed Great Works
• Displayed Great Works give +1 Coin on all passing Trade Routes
• Displayed Great Works attract Visitors in all Cities Connected to their City via a Trade Route.
• All Tourist Visitors attracted to Abbasids Cities via Great Works also become Pilgrims towards the Abbasid State Religion.

Unique Unit: SHAKIRIYYA
Light Cavalry, replaces the Courser

• +1 MP compared to the Courser
• +4 STR and +10 max Morale on Desert compared to the Courser
• When it eliminates a unit, recover Morale equal to the Health damage inflicted by the killing blow.

Unique Structure: SOUQ
Tier 2 Mercantile building, Variant of the Market Hall

The Market Hall generates +2 base Coin, increasing by +1 for every adjacent Mercantile or Maritime building
It yields +3 Coin for every Trade Route that has this city as its Origin or Destination, and gives +1 Coin to every other passing Trade Route. Improved Food and Luxury resources receive +1 Coin.
Cities with a Market Hall support +1 Trade Route. It has two specialist slots for Banker specialists, that give +3 Coin and +1 Great Merchant Points.

The Market Hall requires the City to have a Market Square. You can either hard-build the Market Hall, or upgrade it from a Market Square.

As a Tier 2 building, only one can be built per City level (up to three)

For the Souq the following changes and additions apply:

• It's a variant of the Market Hall, so the first Market Hall you complete in every City counts as a Souq, and any subsequent Market Halls are regular.
• Its City supports +2 additional Trade Routes (instead of 1)
• It attracts Visitors (generates +1 Tourism Rating towards Backpackers for every 4 Coin generated by the Souq)

HARUN al-RASHID leads the ABBASIDS in TIMELINE!

He was the fifth Abbasid Caliphate and is generally credited towards initating the Islamic Golden Age. Caliph Harun the Righteous established the House of Wisdom, a scholarly institute, inside Baghdad's round city, transforming the city into a centre or arts and learning. He was also a skilled commander in the field of battle and a shrewd diplomat, establishing courtships with that other great ruler, Charlemagne. His deeds are forever immortalized in the One Thousand and One Nights epic.

'Al Rashid' translates to 'the Righteous' in English. Under Harun's Righteous Guidance, His specialists receive bonus yields from passing trade routes, and Shrines, Market Squares, Libraries and Universities give extra Great Person Points. Additionally, these Specialists give Harun extra Faith, allowing him to more easily manage his Religion. Finally, because Trade is so important to Harun's Specialist bonuses, he also receives extra range on his land Trade Routes.

Leader Ability: RIGHTEOUS GUIDANCE

• +25% Range on land Trade Routes.
• Every Trade Route passing through an Abbasid City increases the base Yields of Specialists by +0.5 (rounded up.)
• Shrines, Market Squares, Libraries and Universities generate +25% more Great Person Points from Specialists.
• Specialist slots in Shrines, Market Squares, Libraries and Universities give +2 Faith in addition to other yields.

Personality & Strategies
Default Personality: Docile
Alternate Personalities: Pacifistic, Ruthless
Strategies: Builder & Scholar
Language Spoken: Medieval Arabic

Harun is supposed to be characterized as someone who outwardly appears cautious, almost to a flaw. He's absent-minded, maybe even a bit skittish when pressed. Similar to book Doran Martell, if you will? He's always scheming, and weighing his options, but reluctant to react. This is probably not what he *actually* was like (1001 Nights glosses over this, but al-Rashid was not popular in Syria and Egypt, two important cores of his realm and he was fairly brutal when it came to crushing uprisings), but in this line-up he's the best choice for the token timid, brooding schemer who only turns aggressive when he knows he has an overwhelming advantage. Docile as his main personality is a necessary choice - his kit is fairly slow and he needs to stay out of conflict for long enough to compete.

Agenda: Bayt al Hikma:

• Improved Flavour towards Trade (Crossroads of the World)
• Improved Flavour towards Science (Arabic Spring)
• Improved Flavour towards Religion (Islamic Golden Age)
• Improved Flavour towards Arts (A Thousand and One Nights)
• Reduced Flavour towards Amenities (Crusher of Rebellions)
• Reduced Flavour towards Development (Large Centralized empire)
• Approves of players that place many buildings in their cities, and more if they don't compete for Great People. (Flattered by those that build in his image, but are worse at it than he is)
• Disapproves of players that compete for Great People and those that don't fill out their Cities with Buildings, more if both. (Desire to turn Baghdad into THE learning Centre)

~~~
When playing as the Arabs, you'll find that many of their abilities interlock: settle in desert, then sett up trade routes allows the Arabs to buff their Specialist yields. Assigned Specialists also generates faith in several early to mid-game buildings, allowing the Arabs to found their Religion. In turn, Religion allows the Arabs to attract more Tourists and conquer more Cities, setting them up for Culture and Domination victories. Great Works on the other hand, allow the Abbasid faction to also vie for a Scientific Victory as will. Build, Trade, Proselytize and Collect.

Will you usher in a gilded age of spiritual enlightenment? What mark will be Arabs leave on your TIMELINE?

 

[Lord Lakely]

Hardly a spoiler but the last three Civs all have a female leader. #letthemeltdownscommence

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

As far as adding them to Timeline - currently no plans towards it. The second faction for the British will absolutely be Great Britain. If I add a third, then sure, an Anglo-Saxon kingdom (led by the aforementioned Alfred or Aethelflaed) could be on the table... but also, there are so many other Civs that need to be added first.

Oh, I saw the word associated civ and thought you meant the same civ but different playable faction. I didn't realize that meant the Anglo-Saxons were going to be another "minor power".

 

[Ryansinbela]

Teytu Betul
Mandukhai
The unknown Japanese leader

 

[Ryansinbela]

Also the page doesn’t mention the Arabian Independent (Umayyad)

Anyways can’t wait to see what dlc you have in store

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Teytu Betul
Mandukhai
The unknown Japanese leader

If the faction starts with "S" it has to be the Sengoku period.
It could be Kōdai-in, Hideyoshi's wife who dealt with diplomatic affairs, or Ōhōri Tsuruhime, who is basically a Japanese "Joan of Arc".

 

[Lord Lakely]

Oh yeah: the Arabian Minor Power is al-Andalus, and their friendship bonus gives +1 Knowledge on Ore Resources.