So there has been discussion lately around Tradition vs Progress, and which one is ultimate better for your early game expansion.
So I decided to put it to the test with an experiment. I started a save game at the first policy point, and decided to play out the first ~100 turns on Progress and then Tradition. Ultimately the goal was to see....which did it better?
My Disclaimer: I am not a perfect player, and certainly don't claim that this run is a perfect representation. But I think its a reasonable example that generates reasonable conclusions. Could I have shaved a turn off here or there doing XYZ....I'm sure I could have, but my hope is that seeing the two trees side by side, and seeing the strengths of each, you will agree with my ultimate conclusion.
Setting the Stage
To try and keep things as consistent as possible, I turned off Ancient Ruins and used a simple Continents map (so everyone can see the saves with no trouble). In hindsight, I should have turned off barbs and CS as well for maximum repeatability, but you live and you learn. I also used France, which has no real early game bonuses and so won't push the needle one way or the other.
I provide the first saved game at the decision point between Progress and Tradition, and then play both from that point on. Ultimately I tried to keep things relativity similar. I founded in the same city spots (for the most part, see below), I tried to make the same diplomacy decisions with the AI, and tried to avoid barb hunting/CS quests too much to ignore those factors. That said, I did try to use the strengths of each tree, and so I did make some different building decisions as things went on.
Important Note: I did do my Progress run first, and then Tradition.
Policy Choices
Tradition
Sovereignty (culture) before justice (hammers): Since I was focusing more on expansion than wonder spamming, I decided to go for religion and culture more aggressively.
Progress
Liberty and Fraternity (right side) before going back to the left side of the tree. This is my default Progress play nowadays unless I'm playing like a coastal start or something where workers aren't as needed.
The Goalposts
For this simulation I wanted to keep it pretty vanilla. I didn't want to get too crazy like a Pyramid Rush, or a million wonders, or anything like that. I went with goals I have used for both Tradition and Progress in many games, and have always find them a good foundation for a solid game of Civ on Emperor difficulty. Those goalposts are:
1) Found 6 cities
2) Found a religion and spread it to my cities.
3) Obtain my Monopoly
4) Acquire the Hanging Gardens
5) Acquire the Oracle
6) Tech towards Chivalry
With Tradition, I did of course use specialists where I thought it appropriate in the capital, and I also focused on spamming settlers quickly, as that is the main argument for Tradition's superiority in the early game. With progress it was a more balanced approach, slower settling combined with greater infrastructure development.
The Weird 5th City
So god bless the AI, its always got to get a bit off on you. When I did my progress play, I saw an area in the northwest. It was not the best land, but provided a new lux and a solid amount of horses (as I had only a few), so I decided to go for it, with the hope of back filling later. Probably not my best decision, as I got backfilled by the AI and the city was mostly cut off. Ultimately I never even got workers up there towards the near end of the simulation, so the city just was kind of there.
With Tradition, even though I got up there quicker, the AI decided to completely change its settling pattern, and my planned city spot got taken. I shifted to another spot....but it got taken. Went to another....taken again. I finally settled the city much later, after my "6th city" was founded.
Its hard to say how much this affected the simulation. On the one hand, Progress had another city with a monument and shrine which might have helped some numbers. On the other, it had the culture and science drain of a city with no worker support and with mediocre land. I personally don't think it had a massive effect, but its important to note for completeness.
The Results
I have attached some key saves comparing the two plays, I greatly encourage anyone and everyone to take a look (if you sort by modified date it will show you play order). I have noted my general conclusions below.
1) When it comes to the settling of your few cities, Tradition is the clear winner in speed, as expected. You can really sprint out the 2nd and 3rd cities especially fast.
2) I really noticed the power of Progress' Liberty in this game. The early worker is really something, and then with the +25% faster development on top of that, you start getting terraforming done much quicker. I had to buy a worker as Tradition to try and get back in the worker game....and that gold loss hurt me in other areas. Overall, Progress was so much quicker, I had time to get roads a going long before I even started them as Tradition.
3) Tradition founded 2 turns earlier than Progress (turn 90 vs 92). On Emperor play, I considered both of these "safe founding speeds". That said, I cannot discount the faith natural wonder I had. I got it roughly at the same time for both runs, but with Progress I might have had to do shrine first in my 2nd city (instead of monument) to ensure a comfortable found. I went shrine first in cities 3-6.
4) I think the real shock of these runs. Progress built the Hanging Gardens 2 turns before Tradition. But even more shocking than that, Progress built the Oracle on Turn 110....but Tradition didn't get to make it until Turn 119 (and in fact it got sniped by Babylon on the same turn....so if this was an actual game that was a total disaster).
The key was Tradition's science weakness vs Progress. With Progress I got to mathematics before I had the policies for HG. With Tradition it was the opposite, but Tradition took more time with the science than Progress did with the culture. Further, my Progress capital was actually a bit stronger due to faster infrastructure and less settler rushing.
5) Progress finished its Tree on Turn 110, Tradition on Turn 119 (the same turns they either did or were about to finish the Oracle, coincidentally).
6) Even though Progress had faster development, Tradition got the monopoly up a bit quicker. I think this is where the quicker city speed came into play, giving me access to those tiles quicker.
7) Tradition's border growth speed did help me a few times. There was twice that a key tile I had to buy with Progress was given to me by Tradition's faster growth. That said, I definitely felt more gold starved as Tradition even with those tile buys saved.
8) Progress really gets a lot more science than Tradition early on. If you look at the Turn 110 saves side by side, Progress has several more techs over Tradition.
Summary of Results
So as we all know, one test run does not a finished conclusion make, but this run ultimately showed me what I was hoping to see.
In general, Tradition is the king of fast city settling. In a crowded area where forward settling is a concern, a few turns faster can make a big difference.
That said, Progress does generally develop things quicker, while you start off slower than Tradition, you absolutely have the tools to catch back up, faster than you might expect.
So I decided to put it to the test with an experiment. I started a save game at the first policy point, and decided to play out the first ~100 turns on Progress and then Tradition. Ultimately the goal was to see....which did it better?
My Disclaimer: I am not a perfect player, and certainly don't claim that this run is a perfect representation. But I think its a reasonable example that generates reasonable conclusions. Could I have shaved a turn off here or there doing XYZ....I'm sure I could have, but my hope is that seeing the two trees side by side, and seeing the strengths of each, you will agree with my ultimate conclusion.
Setting the Stage
To try and keep things as consistent as possible, I turned off Ancient Ruins and used a simple Continents map (so everyone can see the saves with no trouble). In hindsight, I should have turned off barbs and CS as well for maximum repeatability, but you live and you learn. I also used France, which has no real early game bonuses and so won't push the needle one way or the other.
I provide the first saved game at the decision point between Progress and Tradition, and then play both from that point on. Ultimately I tried to keep things relativity similar. I founded in the same city spots (for the most part, see below), I tried to make the same diplomacy decisions with the AI, and tried to avoid barb hunting/CS quests too much to ignore those factors. That said, I did try to use the strengths of each tree, and so I did make some different building decisions as things went on.
Important Note: I did do my Progress run first, and then Tradition.
Policy Choices
Tradition
Sovereignty (culture) before justice (hammers): Since I was focusing more on expansion than wonder spamming, I decided to go for religion and culture more aggressively.
Progress
Liberty and Fraternity (right side) before going back to the left side of the tree. This is my default Progress play nowadays unless I'm playing like a coastal start or something where workers aren't as needed.
The Goalposts
For this simulation I wanted to keep it pretty vanilla. I didn't want to get too crazy like a Pyramid Rush, or a million wonders, or anything like that. I went with goals I have used for both Tradition and Progress in many games, and have always find them a good foundation for a solid game of Civ on Emperor difficulty. Those goalposts are:
1) Found 6 cities
2) Found a religion and spread it to my cities.
3) Obtain my Monopoly
4) Acquire the Hanging Gardens
5) Acquire the Oracle
6) Tech towards Chivalry
With Tradition, I did of course use specialists where I thought it appropriate in the capital, and I also focused on spamming settlers quickly, as that is the main argument for Tradition's superiority in the early game. With progress it was a more balanced approach, slower settling combined with greater infrastructure development.
The Weird 5th City
So god bless the AI, its always got to get a bit off on you. When I did my progress play, I saw an area in the northwest. It was not the best land, but provided a new lux and a solid amount of horses (as I had only a few), so I decided to go for it, with the hope of back filling later. Probably not my best decision, as I got backfilled by the AI and the city was mostly cut off. Ultimately I never even got workers up there towards the near end of the simulation, so the city just was kind of there.
With Tradition, even though I got up there quicker, the AI decided to completely change its settling pattern, and my planned city spot got taken. I shifted to another spot....but it got taken. Went to another....taken again. I finally settled the city much later, after my "6th city" was founded.
Its hard to say how much this affected the simulation. On the one hand, Progress had another city with a monument and shrine which might have helped some numbers. On the other, it had the culture and science drain of a city with no worker support and with mediocre land. I personally don't think it had a massive effect, but its important to note for completeness.
The Results
I have attached some key saves comparing the two plays, I greatly encourage anyone and everyone to take a look (if you sort by modified date it will show you play order). I have noted my general conclusions below.
1) When it comes to the settling of your few cities, Tradition is the clear winner in speed, as expected. You can really sprint out the 2nd and 3rd cities especially fast.
2) I really noticed the power of Progress' Liberty in this game. The early worker is really something, and then with the +25% faster development on top of that, you start getting terraforming done much quicker. I had to buy a worker as Tradition to try and get back in the worker game....and that gold loss hurt me in other areas. Overall, Progress was so much quicker, I had time to get roads a going long before I even started them as Tradition.
3) Tradition founded 2 turns earlier than Progress (turn 90 vs 92). On Emperor play, I considered both of these "safe founding speeds". That said, I cannot discount the faith natural wonder I had. I got it roughly at the same time for both runs, but with Progress I might have had to do shrine first in my 2nd city (instead of monument) to ensure a comfortable found. I went shrine first in cities 3-6.
4) I think the real shock of these runs. Progress built the Hanging Gardens 2 turns before Tradition. But even more shocking than that, Progress built the Oracle on Turn 110....but Tradition didn't get to make it until Turn 119 (and in fact it got sniped by Babylon on the same turn....so if this was an actual game that was a total disaster).
The key was Tradition's science weakness vs Progress. With Progress I got to mathematics before I had the policies for HG. With Tradition it was the opposite, but Tradition took more time with the science than Progress did with the culture. Further, my Progress capital was actually a bit stronger due to faster infrastructure and less settler rushing.
5) Progress finished its Tree on Turn 110, Tradition on Turn 119 (the same turns they either did or were about to finish the Oracle, coincidentally).
6) Even though Progress had faster development, Tradition got the monopoly up a bit quicker. I think this is where the quicker city speed came into play, giving me access to those tiles quicker.
7) Tradition's border growth speed did help me a few times. There was twice that a key tile I had to buy with Progress was given to me by Tradition's faster growth. That said, I definitely felt more gold starved as Tradition even with those tile buys saved.
8) Progress really gets a lot more science than Tradition early on. If you look at the Turn 110 saves side by side, Progress has several more techs over Tradition.
Summary of Results
So as we all know, one test run does not a finished conclusion make, but this run ultimately showed me what I was hoping to see.
In general, Tradition is the king of fast city settling. In a crowded area where forward settling is a concern, a few turns faster can make a big difference.
That said, Progress does generally develop things quicker, while you start off slower than Tradition, you absolutely have the tools to catch back up, faster than you might expect.
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