Difficulty and happiness: are those only my feelings?

[Jeddite]

Hey, after coming back to VP I think I have some thoughts. A recent post electrified me to recollect some challenges that I had been regularly experiencing in old versions of VP, that I simply don't encounter anymore. I want to know how you guys feel about it, maybe people enjoy VP this way more and those were good changes, but I think the VP experience has diminished in the following ways (generally):

Difficulty and happiness: I am under the impression the happiness management literally vanished. It used to be a major constraint on how many cities you can have, especially for authority, progress too. Now you can out-produce and out-gold most AIs as you can consistently be founding a new city every 15 or so turns, no matter your starting policy, until you have like 7 for tradition or 9 or 10 of them, and then you don't stop cause you can't but you stop cause any AI cities captured would be much more developed.
AI problems with production and gold: Very often I see AIs not being able to buy luxuries from me at the price they value a deal, cause they have 1 or 5 gold per turn. In total by medieval/renaissance I can catch up with policies and techs to top AIs. But I am already having highest or second highest gold per turn and production (manufactured goods in demographics) every game since classical.
Do you remember AI actively forward settling and sometimes declaring very early? Like very closely 6 tiles from your capital? I haven't been forward settled in any of the new versions.
Progress AIs sitting on 2 cities well into classical era. And having tiles pillaged by barbarians so they can't even get enough units to cover them. They don't get monopolies before turn 80/100, they can grab some wonders but that's it.
AI not declaring when it doesn't have a partner/when you reject join war. I am under impression at least half of the wars that are started now always involve notification about two AIs joining on someone. I can see some AIs repedeatly asking me for a join war and not doing anything with their large militaries on their own every game.
AI turns of founding pantheon/religions (deity, standard speed): This is naturally connected to few cities. I think it is self explanatory, I haven't been forced to pick sub-optimal or second choice beliefs for a while since I am nearly always founding as first/second. I think all AIs should pick a pantheon by turn 50, maybe 45.

Spoiler Examples from different Deity games :

VP is still great. But I can't help but feel less engaged in my games cause I don't feel the pressure and challenge VP had been able to offer previously, both when it comes to internal empire mechanics and AI.

 

[HeroOfTheSword]

The last two games I played both Denmark and France forward settled on me, Denmark right beside my capital and France near enough when he had plenty of other options further north on the map. I'm playing version 4.17.8 though so perhaps this is why?

 

[azum4roll]

Difficulty and happiness: I am under the impression the happiness management literally vanished. It used to be a major constraint on how many cities you can have, especially for authority, progress too. Now you can out-produce and out-gold most AIs as you can consistently be founding a new city every 15 or so turns, no matter your starting policy, until you have like 7 for tradition or 9 or 10 of them, and then you don't stop cause you can't but you stop cause any AI cities captured would be much more developed.

Some players still struggle with happiness. I'd say it's based on playstyle.

AI problems with production and gold: Very often I see AIs not being able to buy luxuries from me at the price they value a deal, cause they have 1 or 5 gold per turn. In total by medieval/renaissance I can catch up with policies and techs to top AIs. But I am already having highest or second highest gold per turn and production (manufactured goods in demographics) every game since classical.

They don't have bonuses to per turn yields, only indirectly through completing buildings faster. Their economy stays afloat with instant gold bonuses.

Do you remember AI actively forward settling and sometimes declaring very early? Like very closely 6 tiles from your capital? I haven't been forward settled in any of the new versions.

Yes, definitely. All the time I've seen on Discord.

Progress AIs sitting on 2 cities well into classical era. And having tiles pillaged by barbarians so they can't even get enough units to cover them. They don't get monopolies before turn 80/100, they can grab some wonders but that's it.

Struggling with barbarians it seems.

AI turns of founding pantheon/religions (deity, standard speed): This is naturally connected to few cities. I think it is self explanatory, I haven't been forced to pick sub-optimal or second choice beliefs for a while since I am nearly always founding as first/second. I think all AIs should pick a pantheon by turn 50, maybe 45.

No, this is all because they sometimes refuse to build a shrine in their capital.

 

[Kis121]

Some players still struggle with happiness. I'd say it's based on playstyle.

True .
In my recent game with difficulty 6 I've been struggling almost all game. Most of the time my secondary cities have avoid growing pops but I'm still struggling with the growth of the capitol.
I build the buildings required to decrease unhappiness, I'm allied with luxury city states, have all resources I can buy... I was kinda shocked to see it's not a problem for some people xD
Can someone give me some tips?

 

[Alpakinator]

Difficulty and happiness: I am under the impression the happiness management literally vanished. It used to be a major constraint on how many cities you can have, especially for authority, progress too. Now you can out-produce and out-gold most AIs as you can consistently be founding a new city every 15 or so turns, no matter your starting policy, until you have like 7 for tradition or 9 or 10 of them, and then you don't stop cause you can't but you stop cause any AI cities captured would be much more developed.

What difficulty / map settings are you playing at?

I'm surprised how different experiences different players have, I struggle with happiness a lot on immortal/deity unless I get a strong start and out-snowball the AI early on.

Since happiness in your cities depends on yields of cities of other civs, and other civs have higher yields, your citizens are unhappy with how relatively bad they have it. This negative feedback loop IS TOUGH - the worse your yields relative to to other civs, the unhappier you are, which results in having even worse yields relative to other civs....

 

[Trumtram]

True .
In my recent game with difficulty 6 I've been struggling almost all game. Most of the time my secondary cities have avoid growing pops but I'm still struggling with the growth of the capitol.
I build the buildings required to decrease unhappiness, I'm allied with luxury city states, have all resources I can buy... I was kinda shocked to see it's not a problem for some people xD
Can someone give me some tips?

I'm with you on this. I'm always amazed how easy some people make it sound. I've gotten better with happiness, but it generally isn't trivial for me.

 

[usadefcon1]

True .
In my recent game with difficulty 6 I've been struggling almost all game. Most of the time my secondary cities have avoid growing pops but I'm still struggling with the growth of the capitol.
I build the buildings required to decrease unhappiness, I'm allied with luxury city states, have all resources I can buy... I was kinda shocked to see it's not a problem for some people xD
Can someone give me some tips?

Are you building the Public Works project?

 

[statusquo]

Progress AIs sitting on 2 cities well into classical era.

I dont know how "asking" looks between AIs, but im assume the same as for human. But would be possible, that some AI might make friendship with neighbour, and he was asked not to settle nearby, if such AI agreed, and there is no suitable place
for next city, they might effectively no place to settle until some ocean exploration.. But than again, Settlers, oppose to trireme cant cross oceans even if end on coast same turn, so, that could technically cripple their expansion untill renesiance..
Of course i assume, such AI shuld just stop being friends and attack, but then again.. it depends on other neighbours..

Difficulty and happiness: I am under the impression the happiness management literally vanished

What difficulty? I was experimenting with Diety, but for some reason im just unable to be better than AIs, there making too fast 4 cities may be just too much..
And this is assuming, you actively use "prevent growth" checkbox

AI not declaring when it doesn't have a partner/when you reject join war

If im correct, AI make a lot of decission on their perception of military power comparing to Yours.. On higher difficulties, AIs have much more bonuses, therefore, they are able to faster
grow cities, make buildings and then spare production they can use to make army or use science/culture processes leaving you even more behind..
The problems you are facing, i would also be complainining, about prince-king difficulty

 

[andersw]

While I dont play on diety recent versions have been too easy and its concerning when diety players complain.
I've read improvements are on its way for next version but I dont know what is wrong with the AI.

 

[Tekamthi]

my anecdotal take here on a few points, fwiw

I am under the impression the happiness management literally vanished

i agree with this generally, though i wonder if i've just gotten used to the system over time to some degree. There were times years ago where i'd get stuck in impossible unhappiness death spirals, where i'd almost need to provoke others into taking my cities -- i haven't experienced these lately, so much as short term periods of strife.

AI problems with production

recent immortal game i built 5 ancient/classical wonders in my capital in 43-civ with a 6th more than half done, maybe gonna get it too. Other factors in this game do suggest I should be in the lead but it *feels* like AI is off their production game somehow, can't say why or how exactly.

Do you remember AI actively forward settling and sometimes declaring very early?

both still happen in games i play, though AI seems to be... smarter? -- iirc there were some versions where AI would always forward settle no matter the other choices available to it, lately seems to be a little more selective, though its hard to say for certain. Certainly we are not in an always-forward-settle version rn.

Progress AIs sitting on 2 cities well into classical era.

barbs can be ferocious in recent versions, and overwhelm AI defenses in many cases. I suspect progress is limping partially due to relatively high barb presence compared to past versions -- i even slip up with authority on raging barbs sometimes now, never used to happen

I am nearly always founding as first/second.

i do agree here as well, though i am often focusing faith lately so expect to be in lead -- does seem easier to get 1st religion than ever before tho

 

[Kis121]

Are you building the Public Works project?

actually no
When do you feel like building them is effective? Each time you can't grow bc of happiness?

 

[andersw]

actually no
When do you feel like building them is effective? Each time you can't grow bc of happiness?

You need a lot of public works if you dont puppet cities that you conquer but even then I think happiness is a bit more relaxed atm.

 

[usadefcon1]

actually no
When do you feel like building them is effective? Each time you can't grow bc of happiness?

If you mouse over Unhappiness in the City View it gives you a breakdown. Usually when my Empire Size is about +50% it's time to run Public Works.
That's not a scientific answer, that's just my feeling for it.

 

[Anarcomu]

I usually build public work when my empire happiness is too slow and then, I prioritize cities with at least 1 unhappiness in all categories (or all but one).
Also, well developed cities already have a lot of buildings and don't need to develop as much as newer cities ; they get the priority too.

 

[chicorbeef]

Playing on Immortal these days I don't think I've ever built public works. However I don't typically grow secondary cities very much, I put alot of focus on production tiles/production buildings and then working scientist/civil servant slots.

Happiness for me is a constraint in the early/mid game but typically fades away in the late game. War weariness can be rough sometimes but I find the AI also feels it and is willing to peace when they do.

 

[looorg]

Over all I find that the happiness issues (deity, huge map) comes and goes in waves. As long as you are in the top of the scores, tech, culture etc. Then happiness is not an issue. But when things start to go bad, or the AI spike for some reason. Things usually get worse. Then they get even worse. Then some more worse. It's really easy to get into the spiral of doom where you basically have to spend long long times in less then 50% happiness land and like it cause you just can't get out of it. Simple due to things happening on the other side of the map, that you may or many not even know of or can influence in any kind of meaningful way. So it kind of makes you have to play the game in certain ways. Which may or may not always be super fun.

Public works is a mid-late game thing. I don't find it useful until at least the last few ages. Things should be fine before that. You can after all lock pop growth. If you don't then I understand your happiness issues. Locking pop growth is kind of bad if you keep it like that for a long time. After all you are handicapping your future self and production capacity. But it might still be temporarily good for happiness. Certainly so in cities that can't handle the growth -- they might not be connected, have the right buildings etc.

Examples.
I don't think I can play deity - huge map - marathon speed without rage barbs and at least opening or putting one or two policies into authority. Before switching to Trad or Prog. The amount of extra/"free" resources it grants just blows everything else away.
I more or less have to knock out a close AI in the first or second era. The sooner the better. Then you just burn them all down. Lock the growth in their capital and make settlers until you can get the courthouse. Once I get archers it's usually when I go and knock someone out.