Trying to win at Prince

[vulcan25]

So I've played a few games at Prince, but not yet won, though I've never made it far past the medieval stages before I decided to start over after my mistakes catch up to me. I'm trying to be much more careful about my early moves.

Anyway I just started this game, Elizabeth, large pangaea map, low sea level, no random events or espionage as both create too many random variables that bother me, and I terrible luck with them. Right now I want some advice on where to settle my second city.

Elizabeth 1

• vulcan25
• Sep 26, 2017

Current land around capitol

This is the land I have uncovered so far. My first warrior was killed before he could uncover the rest of the SE. My nearest neighbor that's visible so far is Pericles to the SW. I have BW so I'm trying to settle my second city but I'm not sure where to place it.

Elizabeth 2

• vulcan25
• Sep 26, 2017

Potential #2 city site

Elizabeth 3

• vulcan25
• Sep 26, 2017

Potential #2 city site

Those are the two locations I'm considering.
I do have a second copper nearby but I don't like the location, specially since I think I should be expanding in the other direction.

Elizabeth 5

• vulcan25
• Sep 26, 2017

Potential #2 city site

Where should I settle? I want the copper and I think the better location is on the desert to get the rice and copper, it gets one flood plain but misses out on both silks.

I expect that I will stumble my way through this game and a few others before winning so I don't necessarily want a huge detailed plan. I think I will learn better if I make some mistakes, but this is something that is very crucial and I'm indecisive about.

 

[lymond]

Any particular reason you've chosen to play large maps and marathon speed?

Note that turning off espionage screws up culture and makes border pops like twice a long. Really for now, you can play espionage passively. Just focus espionage on the best tech leader for now and don't think about it.

Can't help you much with Mara, but I'd settle city just W on the PH next to copper (or FP south of it which gives more cottage coverage for the cap).

barracks is not a good build. you should be building more warriors for spawnbusting while growing for next settler whip.

IMO normal settings are better for learning, and you can get more help that way.

 

[vulcan25]

Thanks for the advice.
Marathon is what I played on Noble, mostly because I hated building armies and then having them go obsolete before I really got to use them. I usually played large maps on noble too. I first turned espionage off after a game where sitting bull and others constantly poisoned my cities, destroyed improvements, and occasionally ruined progress on production. After that I turned it off, but I never really made much use of it when I had it on and rarely if ever turned the espionage slider, it always sat at 0. Is it something that can really help in Prince and above?

Should I wait to build barracks after I have copper? Also is archery worth researching if I have copper nearby?

In general, I was thinking of playing a few games until the medieval era or even shorter until I was confident I had the early stuff down. I know the early turns are extremely valuable and I wanted to really figure out what I should prioritize. The few games I've tried on Prince I never really got going, usually middle of the pack if not lower if I had a particularly bad start. I'm rather slow at expanding, I never like to drop my research below 60%. I will play this out a bit but next time I will set up normal settings, I guess espionage won't matter if I don't play them all the way through.

Thanks again!

 

[lymond]

Thanks for the advice.
Marathon is what I played on Noble, mostly because I hated building armies and then having them go obsolete before I really got to use them. I usually played large maps on noble too. I first turned espionage off after a game where sitting bull and others constantly poisoned my cities, destroyed improvements, and occasionally ruined progress on production. After that I turned it off, but I never really made much use of it when I had it on and rarely if ever turned the espionage slider, it always sat at 0. Is it something that can really help in Prince and above?

Folks like Sitting Butt (notorious poisoner of wells..what an environmentalist he is) will do so if they don't like you and generally border you...this is a diplomacy problem that you need to work on. And if there's nothing you can do about that issue, then kill them. It's not so much about how Espionage helps you, although it certainly can if once you know how to use it, but the culture issue alone makes it not worth turning off. Keep it on, focus on Mansa or someone like that to gauge tech progress, and then don't think much about it. Espionage is the least of your worries as far as learning at this stage. Once you get more advance the we can all discuss that more. But if you are currently having that many issues with spy actions, then something else is wrong.

Should I wait to build barracks after I have copper? Also is archery worth researching if I have copper nearby?

Barracks are not really crucial until you start deciding on wars. Your first goal is expanding - building workers and settlers and spawnbusters...unless you decide to early rush someone. Barracks can be put up really quick if you need them. Depending on the earliness of said rush and the level, I may not build them at all. On this level you can get away with it easily.

I love Horse Archers, but unless they are optimal choice in a particular game, I may never tech Archery at all (or even trade for it as it goes against trade caps). It's a dead end tech that is a waste of beakers if not needed. However, on highest levels sometimes you have to for barb defense if needed. Prince with copper on your borders...nah

In general, I was thinking of playing a few games until the medieval era or even shorter until I was confident I had the early stuff down. I know the early turns are extremely valuable and I wanted to really figure out what I should prioritize.

Everything you said here is awesome and the right attitude....but...counteracted by playing Mara.. Mara is not conducive to the learning process because it is so slooooooooooooooow. Normal settings..a lot more games. Once you get the feel for Normal..you will find a very satisfying game as well..and more strategy involved in the use of your units. But anyway, once you learn for a while you can play whatever you want.

The few games I've tried on Prince I never really got going, usually middle of the pack if not lower if I had a particularly bad start. I'm rather slow at expanding, I never like to drop my research below 60%. .

Slider is one of the key misconceptions/mistakes newer players makes. No worries..it is not an easy concept to grasp at first..we've all been there. First, completely nix the idea of keeping research slider at X%. Think more about your beakers. More cities - more trade routes -more scientists - more cottages - more beakers. Obviously, maintenance puts a limit on early expansion, but you want to settle those first 3 or 4 cities as fast as you can..with a goal of at least six by 1AD (and Mara even more).

Once you settle your first city you hit deficit research ...by this point you likely have your initial worker techs (teching at 100%) and on your way to Writing. Once Writing is in you can drop slider to 0% while you expand and build a library in your cap for those scientists and first GS for academy. 0% allows you to accumulate gold to fund the next tech like Maths or Alpha (or likely Aesths on high levels). Anyway, use one of them as placeholder anyway. This is binary research....you are still putting at least a beaker into the tech and more once you can run scientists.

So it really is your gold per turn (gpt) that is more the limiting factor, and well as along as you have positive GPT at 0% you can expand. (But you can always expand within reason) Slow expansion is bad, but judicious expansion is good. Ofc, sometimes expansion involves pointy sticks.

Meanwhile make sure all cities have internal trade routes for more commerce (more gold/more beakers), and get foreign trade routes as soon as you can (more lucrative). Roads, Coast (in culture...or sailing) and connected rivers provide trade routes. Road to adjacent tile of city spot before settling and get insta-trade route

Later, after currency you will come into more ways of boosting gold and keeping your slider a 100%

(on another note, I"m happy to see you turn events off, but also recommend turning off huts..many here play without both anyway, but certainly not so good for learning as it can give you a false sense of things if you are popping huge chunks of gold and free techs left and right)

 

[Randy Random]

Where should I settle?

I would settle directly SE of the freshwater lake in your capitol, NW of the rice and NE of the copper.

 

[gaash2]

Not being able to win on Prince is a "macro" not "micro" problem. You have to re-evaluate general approach and strategy, not where you are settling individual cities or whether you are working the cow first or the grain or whatever.

I play exclusively huge maps (epic though not marathon). Most likely you are not expanding enough generally speaking, via war or REX. For me, via war works best on harder difficulties because of the gold capture and especially on larger maps because securing more land makes it harder for others to get too big and makes it easier for you to get bigger and 'fill in the gaps'. Bottom line, If you war monger more, you will win at prince easily. Don't worry about the slider as long as you aren't expanding/warring so much that you are going on strike. I've had games where I was more or less tech lead for the entire game despite huge swaths of time with the slider as low as 10%, on emperor difficulty.

Also, on larger maps the early turns are obviously important but not AS important as on the normal settings. Being big in the end game is what will determine victory. My best games on huge map are when I go to war early.

EDIT: To add some tips for early game, if you are gonna try the war monger approach, make sure you research currency early. It's value cannot be overstated, both because of the extra trade route and also because you can sell tech for gold to keep economy afloat.

 

[Pedro78]

Not being able to win on Prince is a "macro" not "micro" problem. You have to re-evaluate general approach and strategy, not where you are settling individual cities or whether you are working the cow first or the grain or whatever.

I play exclusively huge maps (epic though not marathon). Most likely you are not expanding enough generally speaking, via war or REX. For me, via war works best on harder difficulties because of the gold capture and especially on larger maps because securing more land makes it harder for others to get too big and makes it easier for you to get bigger and 'fill in the gaps'. Bottom line, If you war monger more, you will win at prince easily. Don't worry about the slider as long as you aren't expanding/warring so much that you are going on strike. I've had games where I was more or less tech lead for the entire game despite huge swaths of time with the slider as low as 10%, on emperor difficulty.

Also, on larger maps the early turns are obviously important but not AS important as on the normal settings. Being big in the end game is what will determine victory. My best games on huge map are when I go to war early.

EDIT: To add some tips for early game, if you are gonna try the war monger approach, make sure you research currency early. It's value cannot be overstated, both because of the extra trade route and also because you can sell tech for gold to keep economy afloat.

Generally speaking you go to war when two conditions are satisfied :

• You have no more good land to settle
• You have a military advantage

Being more aggressive militarily will NOT make you better at Civ4. It's much more important to focus on the economy, especially in the early turns. The only reason why you might feel like the early turns are "less important" on larger maps is because those are easier than Standard maps, so you still have a shot at winning the game later, but the reality is that the early turns are the most important thing, whatever map script/size or the difficulty. Going to war early is only good in certain situations (when you're boxed in at 5 or less cities for example), but is wrong more often than not, and is not a good way to learn the game mechanics when playing on Noble-Emperor.

Now my best tip would be to listen to Lymond's advice, it's golden.

@gaash2 sorry if this was a little rough, but I've seen this "go to war whatever the situation" kind of advice several times and it's just so wrong... hope you understand.

Edit: Actually larger maps are not "easier" than Standard maps. Depending on the map script they can be much harder. Ofc on Pangaea larger maps are easier because you get more trades and gold and a better diplo control etc.

 

[gaash2]

Different strokes for different folks. My best games on huge map are always when I war early and often.
I do play non-standard rules (no barbs, no vassals, no tech brokering which all change the game and mostly in favor of more war) and continents so running over 1 continent with 2 movement units isn't enough to win. No vassals especially makes teching quickly to cuirs or even knights much lower percentage play because you can't just barge through to the main cities and cap them. When I play pure economy the issue on huge maps is that economy becomes driven by city count moreso than on standard as the game progresses, so while I can dominate technologically with 10-12 cities until 1500 AD or often later, eventually someone with 30 cities (often on another continent) will be unstoppable in the modern era and winning the game before that except via culture (which I don't care about/go for just because well, I don't think it's fun) is very difficult with vassals off and continents.


As for early turns, I'm not saying they aren't the most important, but the magnitude is less important. I also totally disagree with your suggestion that you still have a shot to win the game later in huge maps vs standard. That becomes much harder on huge continents than on standard where you need tons of transports against a runaway AI with huge amounts of land teching everything in 3 turns vs the standard pangea everyone plays, and that's a big part of why war early makes it so much easier to win. Lastly, you totally missed a big part of my point, that the issues with someone failing to win at Prince are not little micro details, but large strategic ones.

Lastly, by early war I don't mean build 2 cities and immortal rush type strategies... I usually rex to minimum 4 if not 6 depending on economy before rushing someone.

 

[Gumbolt]

Yes huge maps will be more difficult as Ai have much more land to expand and can become stronger.

The key place where new players fail on Civ 4 is lack of expansion. You will need 10-15+ cities here to build up a decent empire. The Ai will not stop at 4-5 cities.

City placement. If you want copper I do like the site NW of capital on the plains hill. It can help work cottages for the capital and grab the copper. Helper cities for cottages are always good. Flood plains vs 4f rice is not a big difference. I like the cottage route here and a plan to grab sites that allow you to cottage them. Looking at map. Alexander will struggle for decent land here. Especially if you go for the blocker city first. Maybe 1S or 1SW of rice west of the capital to block off Alexander. You have some lovely flood plains SE of your capital.

Do not waste forest chops now. Pre chop forest maybe. You will want hammers for axes when you go to war.
I wonder if you should of grown to size 3 before settler. Not having that gold to work was a mistake. 34 turns for settler? How much lost commerce was this? A free tech?
You do seem to be lacking warriors here. What were you building early on after the worker? I assume your first build was a worker?
Switch to slavery. Always wait for the settler to be built first. You have lost a turn on settling your first city here.

Overall I like blocker city then settle sites to grab cottages. Although the Greek's culture could be annoying here. With so many cottages here getting to a tech advantage should be very easy. Grow capital to happiness cap. You will either want Hereditary Rule or Calendar for happiness here. Religion could also help. Early monarchy at some point? On Prince grabbing Oracle should not be hard. Especially with gold and marble.

Don't be afraid to whip/chop the granary at some point. Granaries are so important for growth.

Lots to do here. Lots of choices. Good luck.

 

[gaash2]

The key place where new players fail on Civ 4 is lack of expansion.

Yep, this.

 

[6K Man]

I’m a big proponent of early war, too (an AI capital is almost always better than any city you will found, after your own). But I seldom if ever manage an early ‘rush’ anymore – it’s too hard to reliably pull that off on Emperor/Immortal and on overlarge maps, unless I’m Inca or Egypt and can commit to it in the first dozen turns. “Early” for me now means Horse Archer hordes or more often, waiting for Construction and Catapults.

That said, I do agree that the first 100 turns are crucial. For example, the faster you can grow your capital, the faster you can get your first Settler out to claim that Copper or Horse or that juicy riverside land for cottages. The bigger your cities, the sooner you can start working cottages or specialists to speed your research. The faster you research, the faster you will get BW and the ability to hurry production, which leads to an even bigger production advantage. Etc. This is why the top scoring games are mostly on cooked maps with lots of food and gold/gems in the capital. If you find a Corn/Pigs/Ivory/double Gold riverside spot for your 4th city, it’s great, but it won’t have the same effect as a capital with that resource set.

 

[gaash2]

I’m a big proponent of early war, too (an AI capital is almost always better than any city you will found, after your own). But I seldom if ever manage an early ‘rush’ anymore – it’s too hard to reliably pull that off on Emperor/Immortal and on overlarge maps, unless I’m Inca or Egypt and can commit to it in the first dozen turns. “Early” for me now means Horse Archer hordes or more often, waiting for Construction and Catapults.

That said, I do agree that the first 100 turns are crucial. For example, the faster you can grow your capital, the faster you can get your first Settler out to claim that Copper or Horse or that juicy riverside land for cottages. The bigger your cities, the sooner you can start working cottages or specialists to speed your research. The faster you research, the faster you will get BW and the ability to hurry production, which leads to an even bigger production advantage. Etc. This is why the top scoring games are mostly on cooked maps with lots of food and gold/gems in the capital. If you find a Corn/Pigs/Ivory/double Gold riverside spot for your 4th city, it’s great, but it won’t have the same effect as a capital with that resource set.

Yes, I was using early liberally.. I don't mean 2000 BC wars, I mean HA rushes mostly, or catapults + anything if I have no horse, basically 500BC range.. though if an AI is close I'll axe rush even on huge map, especially if it is a strong AI (last game I finished was huge/epic w/Pacal and I was kind of close to Justinian so basically I smashed out 4 cities as fast as possible and rushed him with axes before he could get too big.)

As you pointed out .. HOF is basically littered with early war (granted skewed by inca and crazy good starts).. but still, it's the surest way to victory.

I also don't disagree the early turns are crucial, but they are crucial to effectively wage an early war

 

[Pedro78]

I probably didn't express myself properly. The thing I didn't take into account is that when playing on Emperor and below the AI is so weak that early war is almost always beneficial. Same thing as with a HoF start - you have a huge advantage against the AI. However, my point is that early war on "low" diffiulty levels won't help you progress and beat the higher difficulty levels. Peaceful expansion and empire management is what makes you learn the game mechanics, and it's what will make you beat games on IMM+

 

[Gumbolt]

I also don't disagree the early turns are crucial, but they are crucial to effectively wage an early war

Early turns are crucial. Mess up the first 50-100 turns and you add many many more turns to your finish date. So were talking micro of cities to use best tiles. Settling in the right locations. Making the right tech choices. Knowing when and where to whip. Avoiding wonders unless they are part of a strategy. E.g mids for a specialist economy. Oracle to beeline a tech. Plus sometimes great light house when you have many coastal cities. Other times knowing when war is the right early option. Use of workers. Which tiles to work first. Learning to not waste worker turns. E.g. cottaging/farming a tile for one turn so the worker does not lose a turn reaching a high yield food resource.

It's these subtle differences in play techniques that move you from Prince to Immortal or even deity. That and abusing the Ai weaknesses in general game play.

 

[elitetroops]

As you pointed out .. HOF is basically littered with early war (granted skewed by inca and crazy good starts).. but still, it's the surest way to victory.

Fastest way to victory, but not surest. Early rushes always involve some risk, and when they fail it can easily mean game over on higher difficulties.

The thing I didn't take into account is that when playing on Emperor and below the AI is so weak that early war is almost always beneficial. Same thing as with a HoF start - you have a huge advantage against the AI.

In HoF play it's not as much the start as it's the general goal of the game. Early rushes are by far the strongest option, if you are fine with rolling a new map when they fail. If you are not aiming for fastest victory, but highest victory percentage, then early rushes are less optimal, especially on deity. The start itself doesn't matter that much. For axe or some kind of chariot rush you only need hammers and nearby targets. For HAs or Praets one gold/gems is good to have, but not absolutely necessary, as long as there's enough food and hammers. I've played HoF conquest games where I've moved away from gold/gems to grab more forests with my capital.

Though as you said, emperor and below (I would say immortal and below) the AI is so weak that if there's an AI within reach it's almost always worth doing so. If we're talking marathon speed, as seems to be the subject here, then even more so. Settlers are way more expensive in comparison to units on mara, which maker it much more cost effective to expand aggressively than peacefully.

(Oh, and @6K Man, HoF starts are not cooked, only carefully picked. There's a massive difference between those.)

However, my point is that early war on "low" diffiulty levels won't help you progress and beat the higher difficulty levels. Peaceful expansion and empire management is what makes you learn the game mechanics, and it's what will make you beat games on IMM+

Kind of agree, but not quite... Getting comfortable with warfare is a large part of learning how to manage your economy and empire. A very common problem for players stuck at Prince or below is that they are very afraid of war all the time. A typical game of a noble level player tends to include a massive waste of hammers and upkeep gold on units that are never needed, even if it's a completely peaceful game. Learning what units are needed when, how to effectively produce them when needed, and how to effectively use them once produced, is a very important step on the way to higher difficulties. And it's a step that immediately can help you move up a couple of difficulty levels. I think moving up to at least Emperor rather quickly should be the aim, because that's about the level when you can start learning about diplomacy and trading. Until then the AI is quite useless as a trading partner.

 

[gaash2]

I probably didn't express myself properly. The thing I didn't take into account is that when playing on Emperor and below the AI is so weak that early war is almost always beneficial. Same thing as with a HoF start - you have a huge advantage against the AI. However, my point is that early war on "low" diffiulty levels won't help you progress and beat the higher difficulty levels. Peaceful expansion and empire management is what makes you learn the game mechanics, and it's what will make you beat games on IMM+

Sure, the post was about winning on prince I believe . I play emperor usually and immortal sometimes and huge map almost always, so those are the difficulties and map/settings I am referencing. I haven't actually ever tried to play diety to be honest, so I have no opinion there. But on emperor and immortal, my best games are very consistently the ones with the most war. Obviously, I don't mean mindless wars, and of course economy is very important to be able to support wars, but on huge maps not maxed out on AIs (I play the default setting I think 11 players for huge?) the AI production advantage leads to much bigger empires which in the end game, if you don't chop them down to size early cause problems. Also, they DoW much more I seem to notice on Huge than on normal map size. Another reason peaceful rex and teching without war seems to fail more often.

 

[Pedro78]

In HoF play it's not as much the start as it's the general goal of the game. Early rushes are by far the strongest option, if you are fine with rolling a new map when they fail. If you are not aiming for fastest victory, but highest victory percentage, then early rushes are less optimal, especially on deity.

Could argue for days about that, and it's probably (certainly) not the right place to discuss that, but I'll still make my point
HoF starts are very "fast" starts, which means lots of hammers and lots of commerce. This allows you to get an "early" rush going much earlier and much more efficiently than in normal games. Thus it gives you a huge advantage against the AI, which makes the rush worthwhile. On the other hand, if you've got the choice between launching a T85 4-city HA rush and peacefully expanding to 10 strong cities (on deity) and attacking on T140 with 30 cuirs, the early rush doesen't look so bright, even from a HoF perspective, as peaceful expansion is simply stronger. Now of course it does depend on the type of game you're playing, but IMO it's "HoF starts" that make early rushes stronger than they usually are -- attacking earlier and having more production available both reduce the absolute/relative cost of "early rushing". Basically playing with a very fast start makes you stronger compared to the AI, which is like reducing the difficulty level, thus increasing the efficiency of early rushes. I hope my thoughts aren't too confusing

Though as you said, emperor and below (I would say immortal and below) the AI is so weak that if there's an AI within reach it's almost always worth doing so

Weirdly enough I had no trouble moving from Noble to Emperor, but couldn't beat IMM for a very long time. Maybe I'm overstating the difference in difficulty between EMP/IMM, not sure.

Getting comfortable with warfare is a large part of learning how to manage your economy and empire

Here you make me doubt what I previously said. Until now my standpoint was "the way you early-rush on IMM and below just won't work on deity, so why bother with it until you play on deity?". The idea behind that being that the hard part is getting the war tech early, producing the units quickly and managing your economy during wartime, and it's just completely different on deity because of the smaller opportunity windows and the higher required number of troops etc.

Now I'm not so sure. First because not everyone wishes to play deity. Second because it might actually be good to practice early rushes on lower difficulties "just to get the feel of it". The one problem I see to learning the game (partly) with early rushes is that, as these are easy and efficient on lower difficulties, it might fool you, making you think that you're doing the right thing even though you're warring at 800 AD with elepults.

Anyways that was a fun/interesting discussion but it's all a little bit off-topic so now I'll finally shut up

Edit: @gaash2 Huge maps with standard number of AIs give you huge amounts of land. To me this is one more reason to peacefully expand and wait for medieval units to go to war. Actually early DoWs should be less of an issue than with "normal" settings as the AIs usually won't DoW when still in expansion mode. And when they're done expanding you already control the diplo situation. With 12 solid cities you can kill a 20 city AI with cuirs very easily as long as you have a small tech lead, even on Deity, and AIs are teching slower in the early-mid game on larger maps. And in the late game a 30-city AI isn't a problem if you've got 50 cities yourself, unless of course you've got limited playtime

 

[gaash2]

Could argue for days about that, and it's probably (certainly) not the right place to discuss that, but I'll still make my point
HoF starts are very "fast" starts, which means lots of hammers and lots of commerce. This allows you to get an "early" rush going much earlier and much more efficiently than in normal games. Thus it gives you a huge advantage against the AI, which makes the rush worthwhile. On the other hand, if you've got the choice between launching a T85 4-city HA rush and peacefully expanding to 10 strong cities (on deity) and attacking on T140 with 30 cuirs, the early rush doesen't look so bright, even from a HoF perspective, as peaceful expansion is simply stronger. Now of course it does depend on the type of game you're playing, but IMO it's "HoF starts" that make early rushes stronger than they usually are -- attacking earlier and having more production available both reduce the absolute/relative cost of "early rushing". Basically playing with a very fast start makes you stronger compared to the AI, which is like reducing the difficulty level, thus increasing the efficiency of early rushes. I hope my thoughts aren't too confusing


Weirdly enough I had no trouble moving from Noble to Emperor, but couldn't beat IMM for a very long time. Maybe I'm overstating the difference in difficulty between EMP/IMM, not sure.


Here you make me doubt what I previously said. Until now my standpoint was "the way you early-rush on IMM and below just won't work on deity, so why bother with it until you play on deity?". The idea behind that being that the hard part is getting the war tech early, producing the units quickly and managing your economy during wartime, and it's just completely different on deity because of the smaller opportunity windows and the higher required number of troops etc.

Now I'm not so sure. First because not everyone wishes to play deity. Second because it might actually be good to practice early rushes on lower difficulties "just to get the feel of it". The one problem I see to learning the game (partly) with early rushes is that, as these are easy and efficient on lower difficulties, it might fool you, making you think that you're doing the right thing even though you're warring at 800 AD with elepults.

Anyways that was a fun/interesting discussion but it's all a little bit off-topic so now I'll finally shut up

Edit: @gaash2 Huge maps with standard number of AIs give you huge amounts of land. To me this is one more reason to peacefully expand and wait for medieval units to go to war. Actually early DoWs should be less of an issue than with "normal" settings as the AIs usually won't DoW when still in expansion mode. And when they're done expanding you already control the diplo situation. With 12 solid cities you can kill a 20 city AI with cuirs very easily as long as you have a small tech lead, even on Deity, and AIs are teching slower in the early-mid game on larger maps. And in the late game a 30-city AI isn't a problem if you've got 50 cities yourself, unless of course you've got limited playtime

Good luck expanding to even 12 solid cities without war ... you'll be getting DoW'ed left and right by the 20 city AIs way before you can build a cuirs army. EDIT: mostly the latter point, you can get 12 cities no problem, but the AI will keep attacking you before you can just peacefully build that 30 cuirs army. Also 30 cuirs will not be close to enough by that point.

 

[sampsa]

I think Pedro78 needs to cancel his ongoing deity series just to show how to play on huge/epic/emperor.

 

[lymond]

Great advice all around, but still agree mostly with Pedro in that when just starting out, the best approach is to learn empire management...how to expand, how to manage your workers, whipping, teching, etc. Certainly early warfare can be important and learning how to deal with it, but you have to learn how to walk before you can run..with a pointy stick.