TSG 133 opening actions thread

[Knowtalent]

Welcome to the TSG131 Opening Actions thread.

STOP - Please do not continue reading this thread until you have completed at least 80 to 100 turns in your game.

This thread is used to discuss the game once you've started playing through your first 100 turns. Apart from normal decency, the only posting restrictions are to please not post videos until the deadline is finished and to use the spoiler tags for screenshots. Here you can post questions related to the game and share your achievements/anger/frustration/victories while you play. Please remember that we are running a family friendly site, so express anger or frustration with this in mind.

Please use this thread to discuss your goals for the game and your opening moves through the first 100 turns. Anything after that should be posted in the After Action thread once you have completed your game.

- What did you think about before starting the game, what was your approach to this game?
- Where did you settle and what did you build first?
- How did the terrain and map settings affect your early decisions?
- What were your initial priorities?
- What tech path did you follow and why?
- What Social Policies did you choose?
- What Wonders did you try to get and did you get them?
- Did you go for early Faith? How did you use faith
- Any surprises?

 

[zxcvbob]

I was going to post here at about turn 80 'cause it is quick speed, but then I got embroiled in a war so it's about turn 100 now. (I bet some people have already won by turn 100 using Sacred Sites) I settled in place and went Liberty; I'm trying to play more games using Liberty or Honor instead of Tradition all the time. One of the first things I built in each city was a shrine because I really wanted to get a religion. My production was pretty good so I decided to go for Stonehenge and I got that too. I took Earth Mother for my pantheon, and I did get the first or second religion. Tithe, Religious Texts, that culture-from-jungles thing, and cathedrals... and I think there's one more... Asceticism?

I've settled 5 cities and they are all growing fast enough that happiness has been a problem. But I built Notre Dame (during that previously-mentioned war.) That gives me some breathing room but not enough to settle another city because the good spots left don't have unique luxes and the AI's don't have anything to trade for them.

Spoiler :

I may settle a city next to Lake Victoria even without any luxuries just because it's in a strategic location.

Rome conquered Arabia pretty quickly, and although Caesar was friendly with me I was pretty sure that was a ruse. I started seeing multiple ballistas and legions and a general gathering near my borders so I built the Great Wall real quick -- which probably wasn't necessary because the city where he was going to attack first was surrounded by jungle. He's done some significant damage to some of my units hasn't killed any. I on the other hand have killed almost his entire army and he offered me a tempting peace deal with all his gold and luxes. I didn't take it because I want to annex Rome and Mecca. If I find another Arabian city I will liberate that but I don't want to liberate Mecca because it's a holy city. Not sure if I will totally destroy Rome or leave a few cities so I'll have someplace to send trade routes

I was kind of slow getting my national college up, but that might be a good thing because I stayed in the medieval era longer where could buy cathedrals and missionaries cheap. Even so I am the tech leader. I'm 2 turns away from having to enter the Renaissance so I should probably buy an inquisitor before the cost goes up. I will enter the Renaissance with gunpowder and then chemistry to finish off you-know-who with cannons, although his cities aren't all that strong and trebuchets should be adequate. After gunpowder, I will start beelining the top row of techs to get archaeology and refrigeration.

Last time I checked I've built 9 wonders scattered around in different cities for the Aesthetics bonus: Stonehenge, Pyramids, Oracle, Petra, Great Wall, Hagia Sophia, Notre Dame, Colossus, and I can't remember the last one Great Lighthouse.

I've filled Liberty and taken about 3 policies in Aesthetics. (I almost never open aesthetics) I probably should have taken a great admiral for my Liberty finisher, but a scientist that early was just too tempting. I have killed tons of barbarians, so I kind of wish I had opened Honor at some point. Next policy tree will probably be Rationalism.

 

[beetle]

What did you think about before starting the game, what was your approach to this game?

My initial plan was to kill a neighbor or two with the UU, then turtle to CV by building wonders. I was not about to try Sacred Sites because I never had been able to make that work.

Where did you settle and what did you build first?

Two hexes due south, to stay on the coast and catch the river. Was okay. Initial BO was my usual scout, scout, shrine, monument. It really takes something to get me off that.

How did the terrain and map settings affect your early decisions?

First time on a large map, first time playing quick. So those both being different for me really scared me off trying for anything but a very conventional CV. Especially after my quick loss at GotM 132.

What were your initial priorities?

Founding, and managing barbs -- which I had more trouble with than usual. My default is raging barbs at Deity. Maybe the AIs help more at that level? Still I resisted building warriors or archers and held out for the UU.

What tech path did you follow and why?

Pottery (for early shrine), AH (for UU and early hammers), Mining, Bronze Working (to reveal Iron for Earth Mother) Mining, Masonry (for mids), then top of the tree until Philosophy (for NC).

What Social Policies did you choose?

Three in Liberty, open Piety, open Aesthetics (which was a mistake, because getting to Reformation became a priority), Piety to Reformation, one in Aesthetics (for hammers), finish Piety, open Rationalism (to unlock Porcelain Tower, which I missed, so that turned out to be a mistake -- and I never took Policies in Rationalism), finish Piety, finish Liberty, remainder of picks in Ideology and Aesthetics.

What Wonders did you try to get and did you get them?

I am working for memory at the moment, but I missed as many as I got. I will record in After Actions or maybe edit this post later.

Did you go for early Faith? How did you use faith

Of course, since I didn’t want to waste the UA. Early shrine got me an early Pantheon (Earth Mother) then that got me the second religion.

Any surprises?

Yes, surprises are why I wanted to post! I found early but could not pick Eastern Orthodoxy! I almost raged quit at that point, but all three good faith buildings were available, so that was a nice consolation prize. Picked Mosques and Pagodas (with Bonus belief) then waited on GPr to exhance. My usual strategy would be to buy faith buildings ASAP, but I wanted to see if I could get Cathedrals too. I picked World Church as Founder belief, but that ended being petty much a waste, as I never tried to spread beyond CS quests.

Sure enough, when I enhanced, Cathedrals were still available, so I picked that as my second follower belief. With three faith buildings, that made me change my mind about Sacred Sites! At that point I gave up on Aesthetics and started a beeline for a Reformation belief. Sacred Sites was available when I got there!

One other ugly surprise was that AI city locations where almost all inland. I guess they got the Dromon memo? The neighbor AI took one of my spots, but I settled widely enough.

The neighbor AI DOWed me early, but that was not really a surprise. It was just as my UU were coming online, so that was fine. The terrain was such that I was never much in danger of losing a city, even though when the DOW started I only had my lone warrior. I sued for peace when the XP farming dried up.

 

[belligerent]

I'm a little bit past 100, but I'll try to refrain from going too deep.
- What did you think about before starting the game, what was your approach to this game?

Quick pace means you have to be more selective about what you build. This has bitten me once as I missed one wonder by one turn (can't recall which). That really hurts in a Quick game. This being the first quick game I've played in a long, long time, that part's been a challenge.

I wanted to try Sacred Sites, so I've been going that route. Influential with first Civ just after 100. Now pretty close with four civs, but I still haven't found the last civ yet, which is annoying.

Dormon/Great Admiral didn't work for me. Should've DOW'ed a CS to get it. Too late now.

- Where did you settle and what did you build first?

I settled in place to allow good expansion spots. Build order scout - monument - scout - shrine - worker.

Had to hard build the first worker since you rude map designers gave us no CS closeby and no really easy access to neighbors.

- How did the terrain and map settings affect your early decisions?

Above about the worker - terrain pointed me to a "turtle" game instead of a violent CV, but I was already leaning that way. Neighbor learned that the hard way after his first DOW.

- What were your initial priorities?

Science lead, Faith and Expansion in that order.

- What tech path did you follow and why?

Standard science/culture tech path.

- What Social Policies did you choose?

Honor opener - Liberty to free Settler, then Piety to Reformation Belief, back to finish Liberty, now in Aesthetics and Rationalism.

Honor opener has paid off, I think. I'm far and away the social policy leader from farming barbs.

- What Wonders did you try to get and did you get them?

I got GL, really wanted Sistine and got it. Hagia Sophia made sense to let me focus faith on buildings earlier. Machu Picchu will come in handy as the game goes on and I continue to expand. Also got Oracle.

- Did you go for early Faith? How did you use faith

Yes. Earth Momma got me first religion. I have Cathedrals, Pagodas, and Monastaries with SS. Took Tithe and Rel. Texts as usual as well. Hagia Sophia allowed me to start buying buildings about 10 turns earlier.

- Any surprises?

No CS close by. How much of a pain the barbs were on quick because of the build priority (didn't build as much military early as I normally do) and how that made fighting off neighbor early more difficult.

 

[KingDante]

- What did you think about before starting the game, what was your approach to this game?
This was the first time playing Quick for me. I figured I needed to plan for less war because unit travel time would be worse and it would be faster for tech to mess up wars.
I decided to try Sacred Sites. I've only done it once before, but it was scary to go for it when there was a large map with 10 AI on a continent map. However, after reading the announcement thread, I figured I needed an admiral to complete this. I also decided on Liberty in advance. I've never won a liberty game before, as I tend to only play Tradition. But, I knew I'd need a lot of cities, so liberty became a priority.

With the admiral requiring 200 experience, I would need at least 7 dromons to achieve it. So, my goal was to find a way to build 7 dromons quickly, and get them the experience they needed.

- Where did you settle and what did you build first?
Settled in Place, with the goal of 2nd city on the Citrus near the mountain.
Build order: Scout->Monument->Worker->Scout

- How did the terrain and map settings affect your early decisions?
The map settings meant that I needed dromons for an admiral to find all of the other civs. Raging Barbarians should have made me choose Honor opener, but I didn't. This was definitely a mistake. I killed a ton of barbarians while trying to reach 200 sea experience.

- What were your initial priorities?
1. Found early pantheon (ended up with 3rd panheon
2. Build Dromon Fleet of 7+
3. Found 1st religion (Achieved)
4. Gain a Great Admiral Early (Achieved on Turn 61)
5. Find all of the AI civs (Found the last civ on Turn 84)
6. Get to Sacred Sites Reformation Belief ASAP (Reached on turn 81, with two civs left to be found)
7. SPAM Faith Buildings and new cities
- What tech path did you follow and why?
Pottery (Shrine) -> AH (Horses) -> Mining (Salt)-> BW(Iron) -> Sailing (Dromons) ->Writing (Science)-> Theology (Faith)

The number one goal was pantheon, so I needed to reveal resources. This worked out well because I ended with Earth mother due to all of the copper iron and salt. This was timed perfectly the turn after I got bronze working. I got a late pantheon, which really slowed my win time down.

Spoiler :

Also, my goal with this game is to produce as many faith buildings as possible, so I avoided entering Renaissance era, so far (as of turn 100) because I don't want to increase the cost of my faith buildings.

- What Social Policies did you choose?
3 Liberty -> Piety-> Reformation
This was a mistake. I should have opened honor, then followed the above. It would have easily have paid off, and I would have completed things much faster.

- What Wonders did you try to get and did you get them?
I got every wonder I attempted. In order:
1. Pyramids (Want the workers and faster building times for a huge empire)
2. Great Library
3. National College
4. Mausoleum
5. Borobudur
6. Chichen Itza

- Did you go for early Faith? How did you use faith
Yes I did, but I only got the third pantheon even though I rushed the shrine. This slowed me down significantly. Probably cost me 10 turns off my win con, by not being first pantheon and instead being 3rd.

I used faith for the sacred sites path. I got 3 faith buildings. Mosques, Pagodas, and Monasteries. Monasteries, specifically because they cost less faith, and will let me get more buildings faster. I built them first, to get the steam roll moving forward.

- Any surprises?
Don't read the spoiler tag unless you've met all of the civs.

Spoiler :

YES!!! Ugh, I'm so upset.

I was incredibly surprised that I could have found all of the civs without the need for a great admiral, and going through ocean. I wasted a huge opportunity if I had just scouted with my dromon fleet instead of going for the great admiral. The great admiral didn't find a single civ. They were all found with my dromons AFTER I had the 200 experience for the great admiral. Such a waste. I'm fairly confident, I could have won the game prior to turn 100, if I just scouted first. We are going to see some very early wins with this game, for those using sacred sites. Instead, I'm setup to win around turn 125 right now. Just super frustrated.

 

[Kendon]

I settled in place. Since the goal is to welcome tourists, stealing workers and warmongering seemed counter-productive. In my practice games one scout covered my continent quickly, so after the monument my next build was a worker.

With desert to the north and the wonderfully productive starting location characteristic of Games of the Month, Petra and maritime growth looked good. The second site was the southwest peninsula tile opening on both oceans, like a canal for my ships.

I took Tradition just for border growth. Next was Honor because of all the barbarians, Piety to go after Sacred Sites which I eventually got, and Aristocracy to speed wonders. I don't usually finish policy trees. Esthetics and Patronage were next.

I had the first religion and put Pagodas and Cathedrals everywhere. Out of habit I took Tithe. Mosques would have been smarter.

The surprise was not meeting another civilization til turn 70. I was starting to wonder if I had the continent to myself. The next step is to start trading with them while promoting Byzantium's many attractions.

 

[beetle]

3 Liberty -> Piety-> Reformation
This was a mistake. I should have opened honor, then followed the above. It would have easily have paid off, and I would have completed things much faster.

I would encourage you to reload and test this theory. No way can the honor opener pay for itself!

 

[KingDante]

I would encourage you to reload and test this theory. No way can the honor opener pay for itself!

Why is that? I know you've posted about it before in other threads, and I agreed with you then, but I didn't in my version of this game. I killed over 50 barbarians in the first 75 turns of the game.

Is it because the math of the extra policy has to be compared against the last policy you want, and not any of the next few policies? I don't expect it to pay off for the full amount of the last one, just help me to reach liberty (3) earlier than I otherwise would. I can then use that to then snowball the rest faster as well once in the piety tree.

Unfortunately, I don't have enough spare time to reload and test stuff like this. Taking the time for even a single play through of the GotM is a luxury. I also know that a future play through will have many different variables that make it hard to test. Barbarians may not be as focused near me as they were this game. Or any other number of things.

 

[beetle]

I killed over 50 barbarians in the first 75 turns of the game.

That might do it then!

I don't expect it to pay off for the full amount of the last one, just help me to reach liberty (3) earlier than I otherwise would.

Right, Honor opener does not have to pay for your last SP -- it would just have to generate culture fast enough to let you close out Liberty (or Tradition) sooner than you would otherwise.

Unfortunately, I don't have enough spare time to reload and test stuff like this.

That is too bad, games where an Honor opener might pay for itself are pretty rare. I only open Honor if, after a long while, none of the AI have -- so to build Statue of Zeus.

 

[Smirk]

Right, Honor opener does not have to pay for your last SP -- it would just have to generate culture fast enough to let you close out Liberty (or Tradition) sooner than you would otherwise.

That is too bad, games where an Honor opener might pay for itself are pretty rare. I only open Honor if, after a long while, none of the AI have -- so to build Statue of Zeus.

In what sense does it have to pay for itself? If you take it after opening Liberty, which (say) takes 8 turns, and then proceed to trim down future policy times by more than 8 turns its paid for itself. I'm sure this is the case for this map and with dromons. I saw my policy count go from 15 to 10 during just one turn killing off a bunch of barbs.
Also real nice to one shot most of the seagoing vessels with dromons.

 

[Knowtalent]

For honor to pay for itself it has to earn the difference in cost of the last policy you want to take with opening it, versus not opening. In this particular game that could be as few as 10 policies. So very easy to earn that difference. Its roughly 350 assuming 8 cities and getting reformation last. If you look at reformation as being the only thing that matters its a bit lower assuming that you would have less cities. In a science game youre looking at 6 in tradition or liberty 6 in rationalism 6 in an ideology and 3 in patronage. That is 500 or more depending on the number of cities. There may not be the opportunity to kill that many barbs. Even with raging barbs as empires expand.

In this game opening should get you to the free settler and reformation faster, so that would decrease the win time. The issue is will you kill enough in the 90 or so turns you will have from opening it first or not opening.

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