TSG 270 Opening Actions

[vadalaz]

This thread is used to discuss the game's opening decisions and strategies through the first 100 or so turns. Here you can post questions related to the game and share your achievements/anger/frustration/victories while you play.

Quick links: Announcement thread | After actions

- Have you ever played the South America map before?
- What did you think about before starting the game, what was your approach to this game?
- What tech path did you follow and why?
- What Social Policies did you choose?
- Did you get a religion? What religious beliefs did you pick?

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

Right from the start, this has been a game of tricky decisions, and as a result it's not been my smoothest game ever. I considered settling on the cow for the observatory, but in the end I settled in place for the extra hammer. My opening was scout-scout shrine, but the ruins I got were mediocre: map (actually not terrible, it revealed Wittenberg), spearman, barbs, map again, 90 gold, mining (which I was researching). Twenty turns later I would get a pop ruin from a worker that was having to evade barbs on the way home.

Worker stealing was not amazing either. I did get a very lucky unprotected America settler, but the following American worker cost me my scout. I stole a worker from Palenque, but since I was using my scout elsewhere, it took 30 turns to get him into my lands. I also stole a couple of workers from Antwerp, but my spearman died trying to pillage the horses (having stepped away a while to clear a barb camp).

Another reason things could have gone smoother was that I was all over the place with my tech path. I find that the best tempo is often relatively quick libraries into NC, then to civil service, with minimal detours (except for sailing, certainly on a coastal map). In this game, though, I wanted everything at once, and of course that's not possible. A high priority was Hanging gardens, since the cap had no fresh water, but I also wanted sailing to send a cargo ship to my capital. Of course I wanted construction for terrace farms, but I also wanted optics to be able to deal with a super annoying barbarian island.

I did get Hanging Gardens fortunately, but I did get both my cargo ships pillaged. I had two triremes (one bought, one built), but they were fully occupied with the southern barbs, so the camp between me and Washington could spawn a galley that sailed to Cusco. My mistake, though, since I knew the camp was there and should have built a unit for it.

The screen shot shows a bit of a strange elongated empire that I built (well, the map is elongated), with a fourth city for incense and ivory further to the north, planted after NC. I had initially planned on a third coastal between Cusco and America, but I preferred the inland terrace farms over the low-production coastal city (which I may have needed to defend, too). I beat the game by building a terrace farm before I releaved iron, though sadly I am going to have to make a mine on it anyway, since I will need that six iron for the frigates that I am planning - so, the plan is to acquire that third (and more) coastal through conquest.

Note: uploading the image gave an error, but I hope you can still see it from the attachment.

 

[zxcvbob]

My map looks a lot like TBV's except I haven't explored as quite much to the north. I *think* I've played the South America map before (as Monty) but not sure. I have certainly not played the southern part of the continent before. I don't usually play Immortal and Deity games, but this start looked really good and we haven't GOTM'd in a while. I stole an unescorted settler from Washington, then my scouts and a slinger sparred with his warriors for a while and killed a scout, then we made peace because I didn't think I'd get any more workers. He actually paid me 1 GPT after I killed the scout. (at first he wanted me to give up a city for peace)

Starting out I thought there's no fresh water so I better beeline Mathematics for Hanging Gardens. Next high-priority was Construction for terrace farms, and then Optics to see if I could get Great Lighthouse (I didn't, of course), then Philosophy for National College and now I'm trying for Oracle (but Pacal will probably beat me to it because that's what he does) I'm about to buy a settler and send him west to settle somewhere near where my scout is standing but I'm not sure which tile. Then build one more settler for the island with Mt Fuji. And it's time to build some roads...

I did get a religion: God-King, Tithe, and Pagodas. I might should have taken the idols one because I have several gold and one silver tile, but I I got the pantheon pretty early and I wanted the extra beaker, culture, and hammer. Social policies were straight Tradition. Next I guess I'll open Aesthetics.

 

[Bol]

Is it feasible to have a decent culture game with Liberty instead of Tradition? There's a lot of real estate here, I can see settling 7 very good cities...but then there's no wonder bonus, no capital growth bonus, no faith buying engineers for key wonders, more expensive guilds.
The heart says try liberty, the mind says 5 cities tradition.

 

[sebtanic]

Cool map! Looks like Cuzco is the new Buenos Aires, since we start on the east coast of Argentina. Or are we in the Pampa?

I went 4 city Tradition.

At turn 100, my city population is 7 in the capital, and 6/7/6 in the expos. I settled the first expo on the coast to the north, for food trade routes, but then forgot to build a granary before the cargo ship. So my capital ended up feeding the expo instead of the other way around, haha.

Second expo I put on the silve same as everyone above. The third one went on the incense, between two mountain ranges to the north. It has Ivory in the first ring, and lots of terrace farms. Unfortunately again I forgot to research trapping in time, so the Ivory came a bit late. Guess I'm a bit rusty.

As a result, happiness was around 0 most of the time, hindering growth. Around turn 90 I got DOWed by America. I had anticipted the attack and was building a few composite bows by the time. Most of his troops went to my northern city, but because of the AI's clueless troop movements there was no real danger at any point. He parked one catapult behind a mountain in the 2nd ring of the city, until my city ran out of other targets and I destroyed it

My 2 trade routes got pillaged though, by a mix of barbarians from the Southern Islands (Tierra del fuego?) and American Triremes. These were the only losses due to the war. Currently deciding whether or not to take Boston. Probably not a good idea due to happiness. Might be better to plant a new city near to some mountains once happiness is less of an issue. Or just focus on growing my primary 4 cities.

Religion: t18 Religious Idols, t82 Tithe + Pagodas

 

[Megalou]

Cool map! Looks like Cuzco is the new Buenos Aires, since we start on the east coast of Argentina. Or are we in the Pampa?

I went 4 city Tradition.

At turn 100, my city population is 7 in the capital, and 6/7/6 in the expos. I settled the first expo on the coast to the north, for food trade routes, but then forgot to build a granary before the cargo ship. So my capital ended up feeding the expo instead of the other way around, haha.

Second expo I put on the silve same as everyone above. The third one went on the incense, between two mountain ranges to the north. It has Ivory in the first ring, and lots of terrace farms. Unfortunately again I forgot to research trapping in time, so the Ivory came a bit late. Guess I'm a bit rusty.

As a result, happiness was around 0 most of the time, hindering growth. Around turn 90 I got DOWed by America. I had anticipted the attack and was building a few composite bows by the time. Most of his troops went to my northern city, but because of the AI's clueless troop movements there was no real danger at any point. He parked one catapult behind a mountain in the 2nd ring of the city, until my city ran out of other targets and I destroyed it

My 2 trade routes got pillaged though, by a mix of barbarians from the Southern Islands (Tierra del fuego?) and American Triremes. These were the only losses due to the war. Currently deciding whether or not to take Boston. Probably not a good idea due to happiness. Might be better to plant a new city near to some mountains once happiness is less of an issue. Or just focus on growing my primary 4 cities.

Religion: t18 Religious Idols, t82 Tithe + Pagodas

I usually rely on city states to get a religion, but here there was just Wittenberg and I failed to get one. Did you get shrines/temples/religious wonders/policies?

 

[zxcvbob]

I usually rely on city states to get a religion, but here there was just Wittenberg and I failed to get one. Did you get shrines/temples/religious wonders/policies?

I got my religion mainly because Wittenberg really likes me for some reason. I think mainly from killing barbs (which is hard to do at immortal w/o opening Honor),and some other quest I can't remember.

Spoiler :

I'm at around turn 150 170 now and asking myself, "you're doing okay but how do you plan to win this?" and I'm coming up blank. The war with America (which I tried to avoid) set me back a good bit; he pillaged all my terrace farms plus I had to research Machinery before Education to keep from losing Tiwanaku, so I'm falling behind while other AIs are building Sistine Chapel, Globe Theatre, the Leaning Tower, etc.

 

[sebtanic]

I usually rely on city states to get a religion, but here there was just Wittenberg and I failed to get one. Did you get shrines/temples/religious wonders/policies?

I only built a shrine early on for the Religious Idols pantheon. +1 culture and `1 faith for each worked gold. That was enough, didn't do much else before grabbing the religion.

 

[sebtanic]

I rage quit this game when I realized around turn 140 that my capital was still set to "production focus", which I had set very early on to build the settlers. And there I was wondering why my capital just wouldn't grow...

Loaded a saved game from turn 50 or so. This time I got a better game. Population at turn 100 was 9 in the capital, and in the expos 8, 6, and 5.

Also I didn't get DOWed by America this time. Not sure why, since I didn't do much else different except focusing on the tech path better. By turn 100 I have just completed NC, and I have two trade routes feeding the capital.

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

my capital was still set to "production focus"

Well, I keep all my cities to production focus for the entire game, typically, but each time a city grows I manually lock it to work a food tile (although later in the game I get a bit lazier with that).

 

[Megalou]

I only built a shrine early on for the Religious Idols pantheon. +1 culture and `1 faith for each worked gold. That was enough, didn't do much else before grabbing the religion.

Yes, makes sense. I actually chose Monument to the Gods to help me with Ancient and Classical Wonders, Hanging Gardens, MoM, Oracle and slightly faster nc and nepic. Low faith revenue is a pain though.

 

[sebtanic]

now I'm trying for Oracle (but Pacal will probably beat me to it because that's what he does)

Oracle went very early in both my games too. I usually get it, but this time it was gone before I even had the tech. I think around turn 70-ish.

The screen shot shows a bit of a strange elongated empire that I built

Same here. It's funny because it feels like I'm running a country like Chile... which is more or less situated where the Incan empire was! (I think it was actually a bit further north)

Side note: I discovered an interesting "exploit" in my first game. I pillaged an American road, during peace time, that was outside of their territory. It was leading to one of their expos. 20 turns later, they still hadn't repaired it even though they'd have had ample opportunity and a worker was wandering around the area. Will see if this works in my repeat game as well.

EDIT - didn't work the second time. They sent a worker to repair it right away. Still, if you keep a unit around, you can keep pillaging their roads and thus hurt their economy, plus keep their worker occupied. Might be a bit tedious though so I'm probably not gonna do that.

Worker stealing was not amazing either. I did get a very lucky unprotected America settler, but the following American worker cost me my scout. I stole a worker from Palenque, but since I was using my scout elsewhere, it took 30 turns to get him into my lands. I also stole a couple of workers from Antwerp, but my spearman died trying to pillage the horses (having stepped away a while to clear a barb camp).

Wow, so you stole 5 workers in total. I only stole one, from Kabul, but made peace right away since they were cultural and I didn't want to miss any quests. I think that's why you have a size 14 capital, and I am still at size 9 at turn 100 even with my second attempt.

I assume you focus mainly on stealing workers during the early game? I usually just focus on exploring the map and meeting everyone, and only do a worker steal when the opportunity looks good. Do you build units to send them towards good targets and see if they can snitch a worker or two?

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

Wow, so you stole 5 workers in total. I only stole one, from Kabul, but made peace right away since they were cultural and I didn't want to miss any quests.

Early workers are super important, but it's an area of the game where I need to improve. Sometimes I camp an AI city for ages and do not get anything, other times I let my units wander off too far when they should be defending my lands from barbarians and securing worker steals.

Cultural CS are tricky. You want as much culture early on to finish tradition, then you want no culture until renaissance (for science games anyway), and then you want as much as you can get. From that point of view, it might actually be beneficial to keep stealing from a cultural CS. Your influence will improve during the time you stay at war (but of course you won't get quests to improve it further), and if you have a bunch of Kabul workers, you can let them get captured by AI or barbarians, and then liberate them for 50 (?) influence. A little bit tedious, and harder if you do not have EUI where you can name your workers, but still useful in many games.

 

[sebtanic]

Early workers are super important, but it's an area of the game where I need to improve.

Well you're still 5 times better than me lol

Sometimes I camp an AI city for ages and do not get anything

Yes that's basically what happened the few times I tried to farm a city state.

Your influence will improve during the time you stay at war

How so? It stays at -60 until I make peace, doesn't it?

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

How so? It stays at -60 until I make peace, doesn't it?

On the contrary, it recovers 1 point (I believe - it may depend on game speed and whether you are Alexander) per turn after the declaration of war. So if declare war, steal 10 workers in 60 turns (and kill units, and use the city to farm XP on your units, etc.) and then make peace, your influence will have fully recovered. One exception may be if you take the CS land with a citadel, that will drop the influence back another fifty I think.

 

[Megalou]

I did get Hanging Gardens fortunately, but I did get both my cargo ships pillaged. I had two triremes (one bought, one built), but they were fully occupied with the southern barbs, so the camp between me and Washington could spawn a galley that sailed to Cusco. My mistake, though, since I knew the camp was there and should have built a unit for it.

I agree that Hanging gardens was vital here and it was a nervous wait before it was in the bag. Do you also build gardens in all your other cities? I’m afraid my math isn’t good enough to determine how important that would be.

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

Do you also build gardens in all your other cities? I’m afraid my math isn’t good enough to determine how important that would be.

Only my nortnern city could build a garden. I did build it there, but it wasn't a high priority, since all the guilds were in the capital, so it was only for scientist generation (and I did not really need science after hotels). In fact, the city would produce its first scientist turn 209, so one turn after my victory , so it was actually a waste of hammers.

 

[sebtanic]

On the contrary, it recovers 1 point (I believe - it may depend on game speed and whether you are Alexander) per turn after the declaration of war. So if declare war, steal 10 workers in 60 turns (and kill units, and use the city to farm XP on your units, etc.) and then make peace, your influence will have fully recovered. One exception may be if you take the CS land with a citadel, that will drop the influence back another fifty I think.

Interesting, I never realized that.

Next game going to focus more on worker stealing

 

[Megalou]

Only my nortnern city could build a garden. I did build it there, but it wasn't a high priority, since all the guilds were in the capital, so it was only for scientist generation (and I did not really need science after hotels). In fact, the city would produce its first scientist turn 209, so one turn after my victory , so it was actually a waste of hammers.

If other cities build scientists now and again, the capital will save a lot of gp points. For example, if 500 gp points is needed and the capital has 400 saved up when another city creates a gp, then the capital won’t have to start from 0 to collect the 600 gp great person. That’s why I think the math is hard. You would need to look closely to figure out the impact of gardens.

If your expos don’t create any GPs before you have finished, it doesn’t matter. But I find that surprising. I usually get several great scientists in expos, gardens or no gardens, at least in a science game.

 

[Bol]

Is it feasible to have a decent culture game with Liberty instead of Tradition? There's a lot of real estate here, I can see settling 7 very good cities...but then there's no wonder bonus, no capital growth bonus, no faith buying engineers for key wonders, more expensive guilds.
The heart says try liberty, the mind says 5 cities tradition.

You know what? 7 cities Tradition, YOLO!

Actually I opened with 6 cities because the land was too good and the luxuries too many to pass; I settled the 6th (the western one) T58.
Not settling the 6th on the coast was a mistake in retrospect, as was the 5th (northeast); however there was a camp with a fortified Spearman on the coastal hill, so I had to settle for an extra Incense and a Wheat instead of 2 Fishes and a Cargo to the capital.
I wanted to make HG a priority, so I kinda beelined Matsh after the usual lux techs; I got it T73.
In the meantime I got a religion T71 (Tithe + production as usual) and Construction T72 to start spamming Terrace Farms.
I finished Tradition very early on T79, thanks to Gold/Silver pantheon and an early cultural ally, and I've just opened Aesthetics; I'll probably get cheap culture building as well before going into Rationalism.
I got NC T93 (quite early for my standard, and with 6 cities no less!) before I even had a Granary in my capital (lmao), since I went Settlers -> HC -> Stables -> Library -> NC, and Civil Service T97.
I built an extra Settler in Tiwanaku while I was building NC, and settled Vilcas T98 (mostly for fun, although the land is good).
Worker-wise, I think 10 is an ok number with so many turns saved on hills, I got most tiles improved already and I'm working on roads; 3 were stolen from Wittenberg, 1 from barbs.

Now the main plan is to develop the empire by growing while managing happiness into a strong midgame.
Wonder-wise, I'll try a late Oracle, and then I'm eyeing Machu and Hagia Sophia to enhance, then Sistine and Leaning Tower.
I'll probably skip Globe, Uffizi (for sure) and Louvre (where do I even find 2 extra great works with 7 Museums to fill?!).