Turkey should be added?

[neobean]

As you might well appreciate... that doesn't provide anything worthy of discussion nor does it support your case at all.

What puzzles me is that the civilized world prones "Innocent until proven guilty".
That is NOT what is happening here. Politicians are accepting bribes from anti-turkish lobby, thats how so many countries recognized the Genocide. The burden of proof rests upon Armenia, which, (Yes, I'm saying it again) REFUSES to open their archives, quite the opposite of modern Turkey, who are quite transparent about those records.

So while the Armenian population of the world (most of which have never even seen their homeland) are buying out the truth from the politicians of the country in which they are staying, Armenia still keeps the truth hidden within their archives, letting their money speak what they decide is the truth.

I am sorry, but innocent until proven guilty. I will believe it when it is proven by historians.

 

[Spearthrower]

Does anyone seem to notice how off topic you guys are? So judging by the rate... ... Bring on Hitler! King of the Holy Poland Empire.....

The Armenian Geocide is the most annoying thing i have come across in every forum on the internet. And i have come to this conclusion. The Armernians are exgarrating their figures, the Turks never get their side of the story and why on earth do people discuss about this geocide which has already happen debating about it pointlessly when there is a REAL Geocide happening in Darfur now! GOD! Now everyone! shut up about this stupid pointless thread and go back to the orginal topic!!!!! If you wanna talk about this crap of a topic, go to the god damn Off topic section and make your own god damn thread about the god damn Armenians and their god damn Genocide!

Moving on....

I dont think the Ottoman Empire should be replace with Turkey seeing that I dont want another group empire again like the Arabian empire. Also I think the Ottoman Empire should be considered a seperate empire from the other Turkic Empires because they are equal in greatness to the Roman or Chinese Empires and not some short lived nomadic dynasty

Or in other words... you could just have talked about the original topic without cursing at everyone and stamping your feet. You instead decided to offer your opinion on it... thus perpetuating the discussion. Why are you allowed to proffer your opinion but everyone else has to shut up?

And please, grow up - you don't need to curse repeatedly to make a point - if your point is valid, it can stand alone.

Just for some light-hearted fun.... "Geocide" is the destruction of the Earth!

 

[Quildavyr]

I dont think the Ottoman Empire should be replace with Turkey seeing that I dont want another group empire again like the Arabian empire. Also I think the Ottoman Empire should be considered a seperate empire from the other Turkic Empires because they are equal in greatness to the Roman or Chinese Empires and not some short lived nomadic dynasty

Good argument
And it is first post after 2 pages on topic

 

[aronnax]

Or in other words... you could just have talked about the original topic without cursing at everyone and stamping your feet. You instead decided to offer your opinion on it... thus perpetuating the discussion. Why are you allowed to proffer your opinion but everyone else has to shut up?

And please, grow up - you don't need to curse repeatedly to make a point - if your point is valid, it can stand alone.

Just for some light-hearted fun.... "Geocide" is the destruction of the Earth!

Sorray about that... ... I am totally annoyed by that topic and hate it to my very core. Truthfully, I really wish people would just create a thread personally for that topic so I can ignore it without having to find it completely off topic in a thread I actually want to participate in

Good argument
And it is first post after 2 pages on topic

Are you using sarcasm for the first bit? I cant tell

 

[Spearthrower]

Just a thing...
Turkish soldiers buried respectable enemies.Like Anzacs.If it was just hate and no fight there,the matter was only to kill Armenian,they wouldnt bury them.It will be wasted Time,for soldiers.

I am failing completely to see what the logic here is. Can someone help explain this?

I said before,I wasnt there.I cant know,what happened there properly.But Genocide.And Turks made it,it is just unbelievable.

Oh dear. I don't want to be disrespectful to you Quildavyr, but what you can and can't believe about your ancestors is of no value to the discussion nor to the point at hand. Could most Germans believe that members of their families were murdering Jewish children and women... starving them to death while working them, or gassing them in their hovels... or just putting a bullet in them then chucking them in a pit?

No of course not, Germany was a high watermark of culture and civilisation.

What does one person's incredulity have to do with facts?

And i find all Discussions about it disgusting.No one wants respect for the dead Armenians,diaspora wants just money.

Surely discussing it is the only way to find out about the truth. It's either "sweep it under the carpet" or " be open and discuss it". If you think discussing it is bad, then people will think whatever they like of you - which for example, means that Turkey wont get into the EU. If, on the other hand, frank and open discussions are held and it is seen that the Ottoman Empire was not guilty of genocide, then you are absolved. Stopping discussion can only bring negative results.

If all european countries thinks,that was a Genocide,why dont they do it like France?
A few months ago,a turkish historian invite Armenian side to a cooperation,but Armenian side didnt accept it.

Link? Source?

Claims like these have no bearing just thrown out there anymore than you say that the Armenians claims have.



Aronnax - fair enough and I do appreciate what you are saying.... but I dont want to be responsible for starting a thread that will just be inflammatory and where people will just post unfounded remarks back and forth. On this thread I have seen a lot of people make claims and I have yet to see any sources or support - I am going to do my own reading and try to remain unbiased, but I dont believe in the whole massive Armenian conspiracy to belittle Turkey either. There's some middle ground there, i am sure.

 

[Quildavyr]

Are you using sarcasm for the first bit? I cant tell

Hell no
Lol those nomadic dynasties was actually the inspiration for chinese for building the great wall.But most of them arent much important for world culture and that point proves you right.
But all of them are my ancestors including Byzantine

 

[Quildavyr]

I am failing completely to see what the logic here is. Can someone help explain this?

I want just to mean,if you tend not respect to people you have killed,you dont bury them.Get a fire going and make the dead useful for someones Hygiene.

Link? Source?

Claims like these have no bearing just thrown out there anymore than you say that the Armenians claims have.

I have searched for it,but i have only turkish links found.Do you know turkish?

 

[Spearthrower]

I want just to mean,if you tend not respect to people you have killed,you dont bury them.Get a fire going and make the dead useful for someones Hygiene.

So actually, hygiene is the reason, not respect?

I have searched for it,but i have only turkish links found.Do you know turkish?

No, but I know several turks here! Send me the link.

 

[neobean]

I want just to mean,if you tend not respect to people you have killed,you dont bury them.Get a fire going and make the dead useful for someones Hygiene.



I have searched for it,but i have only turkish links found.Do you know turkish?

Post it, we can translate

 

[Quildavyr]

www.ttk.gov.tr

it has english,but you have to search a little bit.

 

[knigh+]

Spearthrower and all other blind people,

Are you friggin' kidding me?

In the post #99, there is a reference list.
In the post #109, I gave a link to the origin of that reference list, where you can find even more references.

All of them are in english, several of these are from non-Turkish sources.

I'll be ignoring any further post from you, since you obviously don't bother to read my posts.

Moderator Action: Warned! - Flaming
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Spearthrower]

Spearthrower and all other blind people,

Are you friggin' kidding me?

In the post #99, there is a reference list.
In the post #109, I gave a link to the origin of that reference list, where you can find even more references.

All of them are in english, several of these are from non-Turkish sources.

I'll be ignoring any further post from you, since you obviously don't bother to read my posts.

Excuse me, I have spoken to you civilly throughout, you can at least return the same respect to me.



Further to that -> this is the link you gave -> http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4840155&postcount=77

What post 99 and 109 are you talking about?

Ahh, you expect me to then click on another link, not that you made that clear.

So now you want me to dig through a 10 page thread to find a list of references from you - why don't you just repost them here without all the extra rubbish I'd have to sift through to get to them?

 

[Spearthrower]

Right, finally I have managed to work out what knigh+ means.

As I was clearly not the only person to misunderstand him, I think it safe to say that he wasn't clear about what he meant.

That's the normal way of dealing with these things knigh+ - dont start attacking people and abusing them because of your own inadequacy to make things clear.

You posted a link and you talked about post 99 and 109... I couldnt work out what you meant from that... that doesn't make me "blind" (so digustingly rude to call someone that) and to tell me that you will ignore me because I am the one who has to go out of their way to understand what you mean. You need to learn some civility.

What he meant was posts 99 and 109 IN THIS THREAD! The link he gave really had no apparent value to this conversation, which is, I assume, why myself and others found it difficult.

Not only that, it was inside a quote AND inside a spoiler tag - indeed, how blind of us not to spot that!

So, if people are still interested, although I have to say I am finding myself less inclined now after being abused by someone who wants me to believe them.... then they should look back through this thread.

Or... as he could so easily have reposted it when asked....

Armenian Atrocities and Terrorism, ed. by theAssembly of Turkish American Associations (Assembly of Turkish American Associations, Washington, DC, 1997);

Death and Exile: the Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922, by Justin McCarthy (Darwin Press, Princeton, New Jersey. 1995);

Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman Anatolia and the End of the Empire, by Justin McCarthy (New York University Press, New York, 1983);

Pursuing the Just Cause of Their People, by Michael Gunter (Greenwood Press, New York, 1986);

The Armenian File: The Myth of Innocence Exposed, by Kamuran Guriin (K. Riistem & Bro. and Weidenfeld & Nicolson Ltd., London, 1985);

The Armenian Question 1914-1923, by Mim Kemal Oke (K. Rustem & Bro. London, 1988);

The Story Behind Ambassador Morgenthau's Story, by Heath W. Lowry (Isis Press, Istanbul, 1990);

The Talat Pasha Telegrams: Historical Fact or Armenian Fiction, by Sinasi Orel and SQreyyaYuca (K. Rustem & Bro., London, 1986);

The U.S. Congress and Adolf Hitler on the Armenians, by Heath W. Lowry (Vol. 3, No. 2, Political Communication and Persuasion, 1985);

Proceedings of Symposium on Armenians in the Ottoman Empire and Turkey (1912-1926), (Bogazigi University Publications, Istanbul, 1984) and

History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey, by Stanford and Ezel Shaw (Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, U.K., 1977).

Civility costs mere moments of your life.

 

[Bastian-Bux]

Lets go through the references shall we? Just a short read over, as you'd do with every reference list to decide which one is worth looking for at the library.

Turkish American Associations: Well, ok, a lobby. As trustworthy as they come. Sorry, I don't buy the german lobbies, won't buy the turkish lobbies either. Questionable source.

Justin McCarthy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_McCarthy_(American_historian) Hmm, so what else did that guy do? Mind you, if we blaim all that nasty words about his inadequacies on the "armenian conspiracy", shouldn't some of his other, less controversial work show up? Questionable source.

Michael Gunter Now this could be a gem. Studying his work about the situation might be worth the time invested. Maybe usefull reference.

Kamuran Guriin Anyone info of the qualification of that one? Further investigation

Mim Kemal Oke Found no (non-turkish) info on him either with a quick search. Further investigation.

Heath W. Lowry OK, never bite the hand that feeds you. Questionable source.

Sinasi Orel turkish information only. Further investigation.

Stanford and Ezel Shaw It seems this reference wasn't to well thought about by his peers. Especially his ... difficulties with the religious and national minorities are named, as well as a lack of objectiveness (he writes from a turkish nationalistic pov). Questionable source.

I'll admit that this was a VERY superficial read over. But honestly guy:

- 1 reference of a lobby organisation
- 2 references of questionable reputation
- 3 references which are probably working for turkish universities
- 1 reference that is indirectly payed for by the turkish gouvernment

And finally 1 reference that might (just might) be a valide reference. Thats not what I'd call a usefull reference list. If I'd present such a list at the end of a simple 45 minute presentation, I'd be highly questioned by my superiors for lack of sufficent source base. Or as one of my old professors would say:

"Failed, sit down please."


PS: Nope, thats not directed at spearthrower, I know its not your reference list.

 

[spincrus]

I read through all the posts here and some stuff need clarification:

1. Troy was not Turkish. While it's still ambiguous, it's thought to be a direct descendent of one of the pre-Hellenistic Anatolian tribes, quite possibly an offspring of Hittites.

2. Turks had a great impact in world history. Aside from the Ottomans, which spread its culture all over Eastern Europe, Arabia and North Africa, there were the Akkoyunlu having ruled over the Persians for years, the Ghaznavids who ruled over Northern India for quite some time, the Mamelukes (which were originally Turkish slave/mercenaries who rose to power and founded their own aristocratic lineage) and all the rest of the Central Asian Turkic states.

3. Janissary troops were originally of foreign descent, however they were a minor part of the army. The bulk was formed of Turks and at certain locations of the Empire, Arabs.

4. The Armenian genocide claims are mostly filled with lies pushed towards the public sphere by Armenian lobbyists in the US. The historical truth is that there has been violence on both parts, atrocities on both parts and nobody is proud of what has happened. But calling it a genocide is one-sided, completely ignoring the fact that the Armenians were armed by the Russians against the Ottoman Empire in WWI, where it caused them to commit inhumane acts, and responsive measures taken by the Ottomans were a disaster.

5. Although Anatolian Turks consider their Central Asian counterparts as brothers and as Turks, the Turks in Turkey are the only in the world who call themselves as such (and Turkmens, of course). All the rest are just referring to themselves as "Kazak" or "Uzbek", or "Azeri"...


So before saying "Turks didn't have a major impact", one should think that they probably had as much as the Mongols and maybe more than the Portuguese. Can you imagine how many societies Turks MUST have affected throughout their journey from Central Asia to the doors of Vienna? And not just through Anatolia, but also through the North? Open up a map and just imagine.

 

[spincrus]

And back on topic (you guys have drifted away quite a bit):

Turkish Empire is probably the right naming that should have been done.

And Turks are represented quite well if you just push the borders of what defines to be a Turk. Let's go with Turkic:

- The Mongols are to Turks as Scandinavians are to the Germans (ugh this one was like the logic games on the SATs, nevermind).
- The Cossack comes from "Kazak" horsemen, who were Turkic.
- Well, there's the Ottoman Empire...
- Hagia Sophia is represented with minarets in the game, a post-Byzantine addition to the structure.
- There are some Turkic scientist names among the great people.
- The Great Wall of China was built against the Mongolians and Turkic tribes.

There were a bit more actually, just can't think of them right now

 

[knigh+]

quick search of the web and copy paste gives a summary article, with reference list at the bottom.

<Spoiler button>

Among the references, the prominent ones are...

To me it is extremely clear that if anyone is interested in references they can get it from the bottom of the spoiler. Putting the entire article without a spoiler button would have cluttered the thread enormously.

Hey ... you should really try posting something like this on Wiki....
...just write a turkish side to the article on wikipedia, in the same objective and calm way that the other one is written.

Posts 84, 89, 92, 93, 96 and 98 belonged to you Spearthrower, so I have every reason to assume you had been following what other people took time to write. So I was really surprised with your next message:

The links you have provided has no primary sources whatsoever...

...Can any of the posters here put up their primary sources please?..

And I was additionally annoyed by:

...the burden of proof lies with Turkey - so there must be plenty of evidence for you guys to present?...

which means you take the Armenian side of the story as the whole undoubtable truth, and consider Turkey to be guilty until proven innocent.

But then:

...However, I do love history, so please.... give me the facts and I will read them all.

So I thought "ok, so he missed my post. Anyone can miss a post that close to the end of a page of the thread. And a lot of people have a similar anti-Turkey bias in this matter. At least he is eager to hear our side of the story."

So I went ahead with

As apparent from your comments above you missed my post #99. That was where I gave a list of references. If you don't bother to look for these in a library - which is understandable as you are from far far away and the subject might not interest you that much - then it may be difficult to sort through all the junk put on the web by Armenians, some of which are true but one-sided, and some fabricated. In that case I suggest as a starting point, ATAA which was where I got the article from in the first place. Lower parts of the first page has some good references.

not only pointing at the references that you missed, but also giving the source of the article and references, plus more, assuming somebody so eager to "read them all" will be delighted.

But then:

No I really don't want to read a lot of ranting from two sides on this forum, I want to read some facts... some primary sources.

I am sorry but all I get from this sentence is that you are so lazy even to check the post I specifically pointed out for you, and hence are wasting my time, or you are trying to annoy me. I read it again now and still get it the same way.

So anyway, I skipped to the next post:

knigh+, I too can nowhere find any source you named. No reference, nothing. Just your word. And sorry, but thats worth ZERO.
Nope, everything you brought up yet is ... propaganda.

And it continues with a bunch of istorical inaccuracies,

These two posts, plus the fact that we are once again in a thread whose topic is totally unrelated to the Armenian issue. I got frustrated, felt like I am talking to people who are covering their ears while singing, and lost my temper, I sincerely apologize.

Had I read your entire post#110, I wouldn't have given such a harsh reply. So I also apologize for replying without having read your post.

I did not use the word "blind" as an insult - and I certainly don't associate blindness with any feeling of disgust. I used it literally, as it means "a person who is unable to see" and you were unable to see something that was clearly there with neon arrows pointing at it. Regardless, I apologize if I offended you by this.

I am a faculty member (not history) in a university, and reading referenced material as well as writing them is part of my profession. I read the posts mentioned above, and I still don't get how a person who is following the thread can possibly miss the references.
So now look at me straight in the eye (wait, that doesn't work here)...Look straight in this smiley's eye, and state that you followed the conversation in this thread, have read post#99, and got neither the multiple instances of pointing at these references without you having to click on a link or spoiler button, nor the reference list.

 

[knigh+]

@Bastian-Bux

I really don't care about what you think on the references. You guys asked for some references, and I gave you an article with references, as well as where I found it on the web. I am not a historian, and judging from your posts you obviously are not either. I don't know any of these people, have not read any of the references, and when I googled the ones with non-Turkish names, I found two of them to be American faculty. That is all I said.

Surely if I was researching the topic I would be cautious towards the references. But I am not (neither are any of the posters here - otherwise they would have said something). In order to be critical of their work I need to know the subject better than them. I (or you) don't.

You: you must prove your innocence by references
Me: here, I googled and found these references
You: you must prove the credibility of your references

All I can say is

 

[Spearthrower]

Removed...

 

[CoZe]

well well well ... I come here looking for some comments on the new leader suleiman, and look what I find ! A genocide thread ! Just to clear somethings up ...

Turkey does not deny there have been armenian casualties. But we argue there was violence from both sides and the evacuation of the Armenians was a war time neccessity, and the events could not be termed genocide. If it was not for the october revolution in Russia, most eastern provinces of Turkey would be Russian soil now (maybe armenian, georgian ?) see the sarikamis disaster ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarikamis

Armenians in the eastern provinces have been exiled, but the western armenians were vitually left untouched. And they're still living there. If there was a systematical genocide, why western armenians were saved ? (check hayko cepkin at youtube, a prominent turkish-armenian rock singer)

I don't really care what people from other ends of the world claim about things that happened on our soil a hundred years ago, especially when it's obvious they're acting on local political concerns (votes of the diaspora. hmm howcome there're so many armenians abroad anyway ? weren't they subjects of a genocide ?). If it was really a genocide, I would like my nation to apologise and accept the facts, but now it just seems a stick to bash the turkey with.

just my two kurus, and I'm off to my suleiman thread. (any mod feel free to delete this post if you don't like this subject brought up again)

oh, and I say no to Turkey replacing Ottomans. Ottomans have their own distinctive history and culture and they deserve a place on their own. Turkey has yet to prove to be an influential country (and the proposed UU UB are just ridicilous).