Turkey should be added?

knigh+, the denial of the armenian genocide is the (legal) reason why Turkey wont make it into the EU. Oh and btw. : its just a question of time till other countries follow France's lead in outlawing public denial of the armenian genocide.

For this question it is unimportant if 300.000 or 2.000.000 armenians died. The question is: can the current turkish gouvernment accept the fact that their predecessors wanted to see the armenians dead, and acted accordingly, or not. If the current gouvernment can say: "Yes, this happened, and we will try our best to let something like that not happen again", fine, they are welcome in this snobistic democratic club. If they say: "nah, it was accidents and, you know, wartime and everything and ... they have been armenians only anyway, not proper turkish humans, so lets forget it" well then it gets a bit more tricky.

To forget means to repeat. To accept the faults of your (great-great-grand)fathers and to try to avoid them, means to better yourself.

PS: Turkey isn't the only country which tries to "keep things under the carpet". The USA with the native american genocide, Great Britain with the invention of the concentration camps to get rid of the burs, Germanies atrocities against the "Hottentotes", the religious "cleansing" between India and Pakistan, and so on. Reminding nations about the genocides in their past isn't necessarily a ploy to play down the "perfectionised" genocide of the holocaust. Its important to remind people that Auschwitz and similar things can happen anywhere, anytime, if we forget our grizzly past.
 
Surely, its our grisly past we shouldn't be forgetting, not our grizzly?

intro-grizzly-normal.jpg
 
But you know, the winter in the turkish mountains can be realy grisly cold, and if you're (un)lucky you might have to run from a bear as well, like those 3 turkish runners in 2004. ;) OK, no Grizzly, but bear is bear.
 
The USA with the native american genocide, Great Britain with the invention of the concentration camps to get rid of the burs.


2 points:

Atrocities against the native indians were mostly nothing to do with the USA as most of them predate the founding of it. Certainly, some can be laid at their door, but they were following a clearly established tradition - not that I mean that as justification.

Secondly, do you mean the Boers when referring to concentration camps? If so, you can hardly correlate those to the concentration camps we know of through the Nazis. While the Boer ones were a nasty means of subjugating a conquered people - they weren't used to murder people or to gain any specific work from them, but rather to more effectively monitor them and drain resistance. Again, horrible but really, nothing remotely like the term we tend to use "concentration camp" to mean.

Aside from those addendums, I generally agree with you. We cannot sweep atrocities under the carpet, or seek to discount something due to "lack of proof" - there is plenty of proof of the Armenian genocide.... the disappearance of 1.5 million of them is fairly difficult to brush off.
 
2 points:

Atrocities against the native indians were mostly nothing to do with the USA as most of them predate the founding of it. Certainly, some can be laid at their door, but they were following a clearly established tradition - not that I mean that as justification.

Secondly, do you mean the Boers when referring to concentration camps? If so, you can hardly correlate those to the concentration camps we know of through the Nazis. While the Boer ones were a nasty means of subjugating a conquered people - they weren't used to murder people or to gain any specific work from them, but rather to more effectively monitor them and drain resistance. Again, horrible but really, nothing remotely like the term we tend to use "concentration camp" to mean.

Aside from those addendums, I generally agree with you. We cannot sweep atrocities under the carpet, or seek to discount something due to "lack of proof" - there is plenty of proof of the Armenian genocide.... the disappearance of 1.5 million of them is fairly difficult to brush off.

I would have no trouble agreeing with this. Except that it is well known that Armenia will not open up their archives (Turkey did) and there are far too many figures thrown out there to actually know which one is accurate and in what circumstance. There is always two sides to a story, and the one I keep hearing is the Armenian side...

"Atrocities against the native indians were mostly nothing to do with the USA as most of them predate the founding of it. Certainly, some can be laid at their door, but they were following a clearly established tradition - not that I mean that as justification."
And I suppose the Bush war on Irak predates him as well? The fact of the matter is, if immigrants from Europe had not come to america (at all) the natives would still be very numerous. And since you are talking about technicalities, the Turkish Republic was not founded until after the ALLEGED genocide...

That being said, Turkey is an demographically young country. Its current population has nothing to do with what happened almost 100 years ago. The world has no reason to sanction today's Turkey for what happened.

Wanna talk conspiracy? Bush bombed the world trade center. Thats a much more contemporary subject and has more impact on the world in its entirety.
 
Completely agree with you. But is following the tradition of "indian slaughtering" any better then following the tradition of "killing jews" so well established by Ramesses II, Isabella of Spain ... up till Hitler?

And yes, usualy the prototype of any "invention" is much less effective then the "industrial application". Lets just hope that there wont be too much more ingenuity put into the invention "concentration camp".

About Boers vs. Bures: being a german, english isn't my first language. In german the word for those people is "Buren", so I'm sorry for my mistake of wrongly translating this word into english. ;)
 
That being said, Turkey is an demographically young country. Its current population has nothing to do with what happened almost 100 years ago. The world has no reason to sanction today's Turkey for what happened.

That would most certainly happen, as soon as these ... mmm ... "young turks" :) of yours, admit that this genocide existed.
I mean... nobody blames the germans in our day for the holocaust, but that's because they are not denying it.
They admit it as being a part of their history.

And I'm not talking about numbers here... "it's not one milion, its 800000... or stuff like that"
It's the whole... "they were 800000 conspirators to Turkish national security" (especially the children)
 
I would have no trouble agreeing with this. Except that it is well known that Armenia will not open up their archives (Turkey did) and there are far too many figures thrown out there to actually know which one is accurate and in what circumstance. There is always two sides to a story, and the one I keep hearing is the Armenian side...

Strangely, most of my reports read exactly the opposite with Turkey trying to censure and close all information about it. Can you show me your source there because I have never read it. I have however read that 21 countries recognise it as a fact. Internationally, it is accepted and it is one of the primary causes for Turkey being blocked from entry to the EU. Actually though, to be fair, you don't actually seem to be arguing against it having happened, but more about the sources.

neobean said:
And I suppose the Bush war on Irak predates him as well? The fact of the matter is, if immigrants from Europe had not come to america (at all) the natives would still be very numerous.


Well, whatever about Bush has nothing to do with this as it wasn't at issue and can only barely scrape through as an analogy.

But do you see me disagreeing with you? I never for a moment denied that the native American peoples and their lifestyles were destroyed by invaders, I was simply saying that most of the blame is at the feet of Europeans, specifically the Spanish and British.

And since you are talking about technicalities, the Turkish Republic was not founded until after the ALLEGED genocide...That being said, Turkey is an demographically young country. Its current population has nothing to do with what happened almost 100 years ago. The world has no reason to sanction today's Turkey for what happened.

Far from alleged. 1.5 million Armenians out of 2 million being killed cannot be ignored. It's no more alleged than the Holocaust is alleged. I agree that its current population has nothing to do with what happened 100 years ago in the same way that 99% of Germans alive today had nothing to do with the Holocaust.... but there is still a national burden of guilt that is not so easy to remove or deny. Attempting to sweep past atrocities under the carpet simply pave the way for repetitions in the future.


Wanna talk conspiracy? Bush bombed the world trade center. Thats a much more contemporary subject and has more impact on the world in its entirety.

No, I am not talking conspiracy... I was talking fact....

However, I totally agree that Bush allowed the Trade Centre to be bombed as a false flag operation to pull the American people into war mode. However, that has no bearing on a topic about Turkey and is little better than a diversion.
 
I'm not Turkish. I've just happened to hear both sides ;)

I would like nothing more than to have this issue resolved with a proper enquiry by historians and archeologists. Unfortunately, this has become a purely political issue.

Here in Canada, politicians have agreed to recognize the genocide just because of Armenian lobby, which I think is fundamentally wrong. It's like "OK, we take your money, then we will agree it happened." Thats not history, its fraud.
 
puff,genocide....

It makes no sense to discuss genocide rumours under this topic.

I think,it is my fault,i should have never opened this topic.:rolleyes:

And about my suggestion,i thought one more time.
Byzantines and Ottomans are the ancestors of todays Turkey.But adding Atatürk in the game would good and makes me happy.:)
 
I agree with you on everything else, and please - dont apologise for your English, it's fantastic! ;)

And yes, usualy the prototype of any "invention" is much less effective then the "industrial application". Lets just hope that there wont be too much more ingenuity put into the invention "concentration camp".

This however, I can't agree with. You are implying a line of intent that did not exist. The British "concentration camps" were not used in any way shape or form like the latter German ones. The British Boer camps were not intended to kill but to confine and control large numbers of civilians. The idea was to remove hostilities from the country and stop support for the rest of the nation. They weren't nice, but they were at least humane - they were not intended to kill, to use as labour or to perform nasty tests on them. They were more like prisons.

To follow your logic, the inventor of the hypodermic needle should receive a large part of the blame for the transmission of AIDS. It just doesn't follow. If someone takes a device and warps it to a perverted end, it's not the inventor's fault.
 
I'm not Turkish. I've just happened to hear both sides ;)

I would like nothing more than to have this issue resolved with a proper enquiry by historians and archeologists. Unfortunately, this has become a purely political issue.

Here in Canada, politicians have agreed to recognize the genocide just because of Armenian lobby, which I think is fundamentally wrong. It's like "OK, we take your money, then we will agree it happened." Thats not history, its fraud.


I agree and personally, I call a spade a spade. Governments that allow for large scale lobbying are simply accepting bribes.
 
puff,genocide....

And about my suggestion,i thought one more time.
Byzantines and Ottomans are the ancestors of todays Turkey.But adding Atatürk in the game would good and makes me happy.:)

Yes ataturk would make a great addition...
Charismatic, Organized
 
What's strange here, is that Turkish people are the friendliest I've ever met, and one of the most tolerant with outsiders as well. Very open-minded.

Of course... you can say... well... it's a recent change.... but apparently it's not... I mean, the Ottoman Empire has been known for it's religious tolerance (just think of what was happening in western Europe at that time). So... It's not like they have a history of violence and intolerance.

This is why I simply don't understand how a thing like the Armenian Holocaust could have happened... and even more, why is it being denied with such fervor now.
Maybe they find it even harder to believe now... or something... :)

Ok. I'm getting waaaaay off topic here, and I apologize. I will not bring this up again :)
 
What's strange here, is that Turkish people are the friendliest I've ever met, and one of the most tolerant with outsiders as well. Very open-minded.

Of course... you can say... well... it's a recent change.... but apparently it's not... I mean, the Ottoman Empire has been known for it's religious tolerance (just think of what was happening in western Europe at that time). So... It's not like they have a history of violence and intolerance.

This is why I simply don't understand how a thing like the Armenian Holocaust could have happened... and even more, why is it being denied with such fervor now.
Maybe they find it even harder to believe now... or something... :)

Ok. I'm getting waaaaay off topic here, and I apologize. I will not bring this up again :)


Well... first of all... the Turkish people now didn't do it, did they? :D

Secondly, being nice to one person doesnt equate to being nice to all. A KKK member would have been a salt of the earth to other white christians in his area, but that doesn't mean he was seen that way by black christians.

Third, forces inside a country can have a very serious effect on what the populace of that country perceives (much like neobean's comment on Bush - still a significant percentage of the American population buy into the propaganda the Bush administration have been selling for years!) and therefore, even the nicest, friendliest people in the world, don't necessarily know the truth. I am sure that there are countless lovely, wonderful, gentle Americans who are shocked to hear that people are sure of the lies of their administration.
 
Many Armenian people were killed,without any doubt.But there is one thing...
If someone lives in your country and supports your enemy at war-time,if he fights by your enemys side...
That is not good,i dont name it as genocide,it was combat:)
 
Well, we'll have to respectfully disagree... because of 2 million Armenian men, women and children... you can't tell me that the entire populace rose up and attacked the Turkish peoples.

Even if they did, the response was still attempted genocide because everyone was targeted.

The punishment far outweighs the crimes.
 
knigh+, the denial of the armenian genocide is the (legal) reason why Turkey wont make it into the EU. Oh and btw. : its just a question of time till other countries follow France's lead in outlawing public denial of the armenian genocide.

For this question it is unimportant if 300.000 or 2.000.000 armenians died. The question is: can the current turkish gouvernment accept the fact that their predecessors wanted to see the armenians dead, and acted accordingly, or not. If the current gouvernment can say: "Yes, this happened, and we will try our best to let something like that not happen again", fine, they are welcome in this snobistic democratic club. If they say: "nah, it was accidents and, you know, wartime and everything and ... they have been armenians only anyway, not proper turkish humans, so lets forget it" well then it gets a bit more tricky.

To forget means to repeat. To accept the faults of your (great-great-grand)fathers and to try to avoid them, means to better yourself.

PS: Turkey isn't the only country which tries to "keep things under the carpet". The USA with the native american genocide, Great Britain with the invention of the concentration camps to get rid of the burs, Germanies atrocities against the "Hottentotes", the religious "cleansing" between India and Pakistan, and so on. Reminding nations about the genocides in their past isn't necessarily a ploy to play down the "perfectionised" genocide of the holocaust. Its important to remind people that Auschwitz and similar things can happen anywhere, anytime, if we forget our grizzly past.

here we go again

Congradulations, Turkey-bashers. Once again you are doing your job of advertising allegations (regardless of whether they are true or not) in any thread that comes up in your search engine (regardless of its topic), in order to advise people to hate Turks.

Similar numbers of Turkish civilians were killed by Armenians in well documented incidents. I personally view any advocate of Armenian side of the story to be either ignorant or racist, because to say Turkish lives do not matter in comparison to Armenian lives is plain racism. So I deny, defy, dismiss any such claim of obvious subjectivity.

I get bored of this quickly, as I have written a lot about this. So I'll quote a dialogue between myself and Eran of Arcadia instead:

In other words, almost every Turk I have ever seen denies the Armenian Genocide and/or blames the Armenians.
Almost every Armenian you have ever seen denies the Turkish Genocide and/or blames the Turks.
What Turkish Genocide? Did the Armenians commit genocide against their imperial rulers?

And who cares what they think? I was referring to historians. But whatever.
We don't feel the need to label it as such. But it is well documented in Ottoman and Russian archieves that Armenians killed a huge number of civilian Turks (and Kurds). Turks aren't denying deaths of Armenians; we just dont agree with labelling the suffering of three nations as if it belonged to only one. If you agree with the Armenian opinion that Armenian deaths are worth commemorating while Turkish aren't, than my comment is the same as yours - whatever.
On the contrary, I am fascinated; you seem to have access to information I have never seen in any historical source.
I have read stuff from both sides, propaganda and otherwise. Not being a historian I didn't bother to keep track of any reference. In these I often saw some (not all) Armenian allegations disproven (sometimes by other Armenians) and no reasonable defense against the accusations from the Turkish side (except blabberings of "we are victims, to suggest else is evil").

quick search of the web and copy paste gives a summary article, with reference list at the bottom.

Spoiler :
The issue:

Whether during the collapse of the Ottoman Empire genocide was perpetrated against Ottoman Armenian citizens in Eastern Anatolia.

The Ottoman Empire ruled over all of Anatolia and significant parts of Europe, North Africa, the Caucasus and Middle East for over 700 years. Lands once Ottoman dominions today comprise more than 30 independent nations.

A century of ever-increasing conflict, beginning roughly in 1820 and culminating with the founding of the Republic of Turkey in 1923, characterized the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire. The imperiled empire contracted against an onslaught of external invaders and internal nationalist independence movements. In this context must the tragic experience of the Ottoman Armenians of Eastern Anatolia be understood. For during these waning days of the Ottoman Empire did millions die Muslim, Jew and Christian alike.

Yet Armenian Americans have attempted to extricate and isolate their history from the complex circumstances in which their ancestors were embroiled. In so doing, they describe a world populated only by white-hatted heroes and black-hatted villains. Infusing history with myth, Armenian Americans vilify the Republic of Turkey, Turkish Americans, and ethnic Turks worldwide. Bent on this prosecution, Armenian Americans choose their evidence carefully, omitting facts that tend to exonerate those whom they presume guilty, ignoring important events and verifiable accounts, and sometimes relying on dubious or prejudiced sources and even falsified documents.

Any attempt to challenge the credibility of witnesses, or the authenticity of documents is either wholly squelched or met with accusations of genocide denial. Moreover, attempts to expose the suffering and needless death of millions of innocent non-Christians enmeshed in the same events as the Anatolian Armenians

are greeted with sneers, as if to say that some lives are inherently more valuable than others and that one faith is more deserving than another. The lack of real debate ensures that any consideration of what genuinely occurred nearly a century ago in Eastern Anatolia will utterly fail as a search for the truth.

Ultimately, whether to blindly accept the Armenian American portrayal is an issue of fundamental fairness and the most cherished of American rights - free speech. Simply put, in America every person has the opportunity to tell his or her story. However, Armenian Americans seek to deny this very right to others by branding anyone who disagrees with their portrayal a "genocide denier." The complete story of the vast suffering of this period has not yet been written. When that story is told, the following facts must not be forgotten.

Demographic studies prove that prior to World War I fewer than 1.5 million Armenians lived in the entire Ottoman Empire. Thus, allegations that more than 1.5 million Armenians from eastern Anatolia died must be false.

Figures reporting the pre-World War I Armenian population vary widely, with Armenian sources claiming far more than others. British, French and Ottoman sources give total figures of 1.05-1.50 million. Only certain Armenian sources claim a pre-war population larger than 1.50 million. Comparing these to post-war figures yields a rough estimate of losses. Boghos Nubar, head of the Armenian delegation at the Paris Peace Conference in 1920, noted that significant numbers survived the war. He declared that after the war 280,000 Armenians remained in the Anatolian portion of the occupied Ottoman Empire while 700,000 Armenians had emigrated to other countries. Historian and demographer, Dr. Justin McCarthy of the University of Louisville, calculates the actual losses as slightly less than 600,000. This figure agrees with those provided by British historian Arnold Toynbee, French missionary, Monseigneur Touchet, and others.

Over 2.5 million Muslims died during the same period from similar causes.

Armenians suffered a high mortality. But one must likewise consider the number of non-Christian dead. The statistics tell us that more than 2.5 million Anatolian Muslims also perished. Thus, the years 1912-1922 constitute a horrible period for humanity, not just for Armenians. Documents of the time describe intercommunal violence, forced migration of all ethnic groups, disease, and famine as causes of death.

Armenian American evidence of genocide is derived from dubious and prejudicial sources.

Armenian Americans purport that the wartime propaganda of the enemies of the Ottoman Empire constitutes objective evidence. Oft-quoted Ambassador Henry Morgenthau stated in correspondence with President Wilson that he intended to uncover or manufacture news that would goad the U.S. into joining the war, and thus he sought to malign the Ottoman Empire, an enemy of the Triple Entente. Moreover, Morgenthau relied on politically motivated Armenians; his primary aid, translator and confidant was Arshag Schmavonian, his secretary was Hagop Andonian. Morgenthau professed that the Turks were an inferior race. Thus, his accounts can hardly be considered objective.

Compare the wartime writings of Morgenthau and the oft-cited J.G. Harbord to the post-war writings of Admiral Mark L. Bristol, U.S. Ambassador to the Republic of Turkey 1920-1926. In a March 28,1921 letter he wrote, "[R]eports are being freely circulated in the [U.S.] that the Turks massacred thousands of Armenians in the Caucasus. Such reports are repeated so many times it makes my blood boil. The Near East Relief have the reports from Yarrow and our own American people which show absolutely that such Armenian reports are absolutely false. The circulation of such false reports in the United States, without refutation, is an outrage and is certainly doing the Armenians more harm than good.... Why not tell the truth about the Armenians in every way?"

The Armenian deaths do not constitute genocide.

A. Boghos Nubar addressed a letter to the Times of London on January 30,1919 confirming that the Armenians were indeed belligerents in World War I. He stated with pride, "In the Caucasus, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Russian armies, about 50,000 Armenian volunteers under Andranik, Mazarbekoff, and others not only fought for four years for the cause of the Entente, but after the breakdown of Russia they were the only forces in the Caucasus to resist the advance of the Turks...."

Between 1893 and 1915 Ottoman Armenians in eastern Anatolia rebelled against their government -the Ottoman government -- and joined Armenian revolutionary groups, such as the notorious Dashnaks and Hunchaks. They spearheaded a massive Russian invasion of Eastern Anatolia. On November 5, 1914, the President of the Armenian National Bureau in Tblisi declared to Czar Nicholas II, "From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks for the glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of Russian arms." In the service of the Russians, traitorous Armenians massacred over 60,000 Muslims in the city of Van alone.

B. The allegation of genocide is illogical. In the words of eminent historian Bernard Lewis, speaking to the Israeli daily Ha'aretz on January 23,1998, "The Armenians want to benefit from both worlds. On the one hand, they speak with pride of their struggle against Ottoman despotism, while on the other hand they compare their tragedy to the Jewish Holocaust. I do not accept this. I do not say that the Armenians did not suffer terribly. But I find enough cause for me to contain their attempts to use the Armenian massacres to diminish the worth of the Jewish Holocaust and to relate to it instead as an ethnic dispute." (translation)

C. None of the Ottoman orders commanding the relocation of Armenians, which have been reviewed by historians to date, orders killings. To the contrary, they order Ottoman officials to protect relocated Armenians. Unfortunately, where Ottoman control was weak, Armenian relocatees suffered most. The stories of the time give examples of columns of hundreds of Armenians guarded by as few as two Ottoman gendarmes. When local Muslims attacked the columns, Armenians were robbed and killed. These Muslims had themselves suffered greatly at the hands of Armenians and Russians. Conversely,where Ottoman control was strong, Armenians went unharmed. In Istanbul and other major Western Anatolian cities, large populations of Armenians remained throughout the war, their churches open.

D. The term "genocide" did not exist prior to 1944. It was later defined quite specifically by the 1948 U.N. Convention on the Prevention of the Crime of Genocide. The standard of proof in establishing the crime of genocide is formidable given the severity of the crime, the opportunity for overlap with other crimes, and the stigma of being charged with or found guilty of the crime. While presenting the Convention for ratification, the Secretary General of the U.N. emphasized that genocide is a crime of "specific intent," requiring conclusive proof that members of a group were targeted simply because they were members of that group. The Secretary General further cautioned that those merely sharing political aims are not protected by the convention.

Under this standard of proof, the Armenian American claim of genocide fails. First, no direct evidence has been discovered demonstrating that any Ottoman official sought the destruction of the Ottoman Armenians as such. Second, Ottoman Armenian revolutionaries confessedly waged war against their own government. Under these circumstances, it was the Ottoman Armenians' violent political alliance with the Russian forces, not their ethnic or religious identity, which rendered them subject to the relocation.

The British convened the Malta Tribunal to try Ottoman officials for crimes against Armenians. All of the accused were acquitted.

In 1919 The British High Commission in Istanbul, utilizing Armenian informants, arrested 144 high Ottoman officials and deported them to the island of Malta for trial on charges of harming Armenians. While the deportees were interned in Malta, the British appointed an Armenian scholar, Mr. Haig Khazarian, to conduct a thorough examination of the Ottoman, British, and U.S. archives to substantiate the charges. Though granted complete access to all records, Khazarian's corps of investigators discovered an utter lack of evidence demonstrating that the Ottoman officials either sanctioned or encouraged killings of Armenians. The British Procurator General exonerated and released all 144 detainees - - after two years and four months of detention without trial. No compensation was ever paid to the detainees.

Despite the acquittals by the Malta Tribunal, Armenian terrorists have engaged in a vigilante war that continues today.

In 1921, a secret Armenian network, named Nemesis, took the law into its own hands and hunted down and assassinated several former Ottoman Ministers, among them Talat Pasha and Jemal Pasha. Following in Nemesis' footsteps, during the 1970's and 1980's the Armenian terrorist groups ASALA (Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia) and JCAG (Justice Commandos of the Armenian Genocide) committed over 230 armed attacks, killing 71 innocent people, including 31 Turkish diplomats, and seriously wounding over 520 people in a campaign of blood revenge.

The Holocaust bears no meaningful relation to the Ottoman Armenian experience.

1. Jews neither demanded the dismemberment of the nations in which they had lived nor did they kill their fellow citizens. By contrast, Ottoman Armenians openly agitated for a separate state in lands in which they were numerically inferior. With determination they committed mass treason, and took up arms against their government. They also massacred local Muslim and Jewish civilians.

2. The guilt of the perpetrators of the Holocaust was proven at Nuremberg. By contrast, those alleged to have been responsible for the maladministration of the relocation policies were exonerated at Malta by the World War I victors.

3. Hitler did not refer to the Armenians in plotting the Final Solution; the infamous quote is fraudulent. For this reason it was rejected as evidence by the Nuremberg tribunal.

4. Armenians collaborated with the Nazis, forming the 812th Battalion of the [Nazi] Wehrmacht, and its successor, the Armenian legion. Armenians published Anti-Jewish, pro-Nazi propaganda in the Armenian-language Hairenik daily and the Armenian weekly journal.

The depth and volume of scholarship on the Holocaust is tremendous. By contrast, much about the late Ottoman Empire has yet to be learned and many conclusions have yet to be drawn.

Suggested reading

Armenian Atrocities and Terrorism, ed. by theAssembly of Turkish American Associations (Assembly of Turkish American Associations, Washington, DC, 1997);

Death and Exile: the Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922, by Justin McCarthy (Darwin Press, Princeton, New Jersey. 1995);

Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman Anatolia and the End of the Empire, by Justin McCarthy (New York University Press, New York, 1983);

Pursuing the Just Cause of Their People, by Michael Gunter (Greenwood Press, New York, 1986);

The Armenian File: The Myth of Innocence Exposed, by Kamuran Guriin (K. Riistem & Bro. and Weidenfeld & Nicolson Ltd., London, 1985);

The Armenian Question 1914-1923, by Mim Kemal Oke (K. Rustem & Bro. London, 1988);

The Story Behind Ambassador Morgenthau's Story, by Heath W. Lowry (Isis Press, Istanbul, 1990);

The Talat Pasha Telegrams: Historical Fact or Armenian Fiction, by Sinasi Orel and SQreyyaYuca (K. Rustem & Bro., London, 1986);

The U.S. Congress and Adolf Hitler on the Armenians, by Heath W. Lowry (Vol. 3, No. 2, Political Communication and Persuasion, 1985);

Proceedings of Symposium on Armenians in the Ottoman Empire and Turkey (1912-1926), (Bogazigi University Publications, Istanbul, 1984) and

History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey, by Stanford and Ezel Shaw (Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, U.K., 1977).

Among the references, the prominent ones are Justin McCarthy and Stanford Shaw, who are/were (Shaw died recently I think) professors in US universities, with expertise on the history of the region. (Others may be profs, too, I didn't google them).

Unfortunately, anybody who attempts to make an objective investigation of the matter is often buried under death threats from Armenian gangs.


I don't like to spend too much time on the subject though, as it is counterproductive and hate-inspiring for everybody. Intellectuals should put their efforts into understanding the causes so that things like this never happen again, rather than argueing over how horroible were the horribly large casualty numbers on each side.


PS: I am against Turkey's EU membership.


So, does anybody want to say something about the actual topic, so that we can get the discussion back from the hijackers?
 
You have right to disagree it.:)
I have right to disagree the genocide word.:)

I wasn't there,if i was there...

And one more thing about it;
As i was 8-9 years old,i got a lot of Armenian friends,there was no hate,no genocide.In Turkey most of people will not agree the genocide.(Even the Armenians)
 
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