TwoKay Foods or Giorgio Armeier?

[chicorbeef]

Hey everybody, so I was wondering-I have a 15 city Ottoman Empire (3 of them are puppets), most of my cities reaching 20 pop, turn 274, 1100 empire-wide culture, I'm about to research Corporations and I'm wondering what do you think I should pick? I've gone progress, fealty, rationalism (1 policy away from completion), planning to go Order and what do you think would be the best choice? Thanks.

 

[IcyAngel]

Giorgio imo, because culture is more important than food at this point the game (especially for wide empire, where too much population growth can cause unhappiness).

 

[Galbias]

I tend to avoid Twokay Foods when possible because Corporations come late-game and Food is something that will only help you up to a point (usually when you have all specialist slots and relevant tiles locked), not a fan of Trader Sid's for similar reasons. Your Culture does sound a bit low for your point in the game and number of cities so I'd go Giorgio.

 

[CrazyG]

Giorgio all the way

 

[chicorbeef]

All right, thanks. Btw, should I snag the Nationalisation Tenet as well? It seems counterintuitive to spend culture on getting more culture through more franchises.

Edit: I'm curious as to why everybody believes the pop growth isn't worth it? Doesn't more pop equal more science, production and culture through Public Schools, Factories, Museums and whatnot, as well as more specialists? I also have the Diligence and Inspiration follower beliefs, if that changes things, and the pop of most of my cities is (only?) about 22 pop.

 

[tu_79]

I tend to avoid Twokay Foods when possible because Corporations come late-game and Food is something that will only help you up to a point (usually when you have all specialist slots and relevant tiles locked), not a fan of Trader Sid's for similar reasons. Your Culture does sound a bit low for your point in the game and number of cities so I'd go Giorgio.

In this case, shouldn't be the yields something different? Or is it intended that a civ with a bad monopoly for corporations has to look for another monopoly to avoid bad corporations?

 

[Workerspam]

I've gone for Twokay in the past and found it worthwhile but I'm a bit of a growth junkie. I'd still opt for Giorgio given the option most of the time; policies at that point in the game are just more versatile.

 

[Galbias]

In this case, shouldn't be the yields something different? Or is it intended that a civ with a bad monopoly for corporations has to look for another monopoly to avoid bad corporations?

That's a difficult question honestly. Corporations are hard to balance because they come fairly late into the game and operate in a relatively complex way (and in a lot of games you don't have much of a choice), I have a feeling a lot of people don't really try to understand how they work beyond "more of X yield, sounds good".

And there are benefits to extra population from the buildings that give you yields, and more Food allows you to slot more Specialists late game and even Specialists that aren't directly useful will often offer you yields of some other type besides their primary. It's the sort of thing that's very hard to quantify without manually testing, I assume Gazebo probably watches Corporations in AI games to see if any lead to significantly better results than others.

Though while on the subject of corporation balance, I feel like the bonus Coal from Hexxon Refinery could be switched to Uranium, seeing as you'll have Coal available from Coal Refineries around the time that you unlock the Corporation to construct. I'd probably consider Trader Sid's, TwoKay Foods, and Hexxon Refinery to be some of the weaker Corporations but it's hard to say.

All right, thanks. Btw, should I snag the Nationalisation Tenet as well? It seems counterintuitive to spend culture on getting more culture through more franchises.

Edit: I'm curious as to why everybody believes the pop growth isn't worth it? Doesn't more pop equal more science, production and culture through Public Schools, Factories, Museums and whatnot, as well as more specialists? I also have the Diligence and Inspiration follower beliefs, if that changes things, and the pop of most of my cities is (only?) about 22 pop.

Nationalization always seemed like a fairly mediocre tenet to me. Maybe if you have enough Cities/Offices that your number of Offices is significantly higher than your Franchise limit (not sure how Franchise limit is calculated offhand but that seems unlikely), and since most Corporations encourage you to keep trade routes active with cities that have Franchises, you would presumably have to use your trade routes internally to get those benefits. Ie if you have Giorgio Armeier and Nationalization and you're sending your trade routes to other civs, you miss out on the "Trading with a Franchise produces 10% Culture" effect. Unless the "Foreign Franchises no longer benefit your Corporation." part in the description refers to only the bonus from each Global Franchise that every Office gets (+3 Culture in GA's case), but I would assume not.

 

[ElliotS]

Nationalization always seemed like a fairly mediocre tenet to me. Maybe if you have enough Cities/Offices that your number of Offices is significantly higher than your Franchise limit (not sure how Franchise limit is calculated offhand but that seems unlikely), and since most Corporations encourage you to keep trade routes active with cities that have Franchises, you would presumably have to use your trade routes internally to get those benefits. Ie if you have Giorgio Armeier and Nationalization and you're sending your trade routes to other civs, you miss out on the "Trading with a Franchise produces 10% Culture" effect. Unless the "Foreign Franchises no longer benefit your Corporation." part in the description refers to only the bonus from each Global Franchise that every Office gets (+3 Culture in GA's case), but I would assume not.

Order has a bunch of internal trade-route buffs, and nationalization allows you to go all-in on it.

 

[Favorius]

For a wide play nationalization is better than mediocre. Instead of waiting your trade routes to finish, you get your franchises once you finish your offices and I always prioritize offices for widespread bonus.

As for corporation choices, more food brings more pop and it is more unhappiness, i would go with culture. You already have rationalism growth bonus as well as can get growth from order tenet so working a few more farms can give similar effect while culture is hard to come by.

 

[Galbias]

Order has a bunch of internal trade-route buffs, and nationalization allows you to go all-in on it.

That's a good point, yeah.

For a wide play nationalization is better than mediocre. Instead of waiting your trade routes to finish, you get your franchises once you finish your offices and I always prioritize offices for widespread bonus.

That's true but afaik a Franchise will spawn from a TR sent from a city as long as it has an Office, even if that Office was built after the TR was started. So if, say, you have 8 outbound TRs and build Offices in all cities with outbound TRs, you'll have 8 Franchises within 30 turns. And giving up a tier 2 Tenet early like that is potentially losing some very nice things, like free Research Labs before they're actually buildable or 5 of most yields in all cities.

 

[chicorbeef]

If I do go Giorgio, would getting Nationalization be worth it? More franchises equals more culture, but that's about it, and I would rather not spend culture on getting more culture when I could go asap for the free Research Labs and perhaps another good Order Tier 2 tenet. (What are the good Order tenets, if you don't mind me asking? I'm thinking People's Army, Workers Faculties, Peace Bread and Land for the first 3 Tier 1, and Academy of Sciences for my first Tier 2. Is wide Freedom a viable choice at all?).

I've also been trying to use Tanzimat and finish trade routes, but they keep getting cut off, so I doubt I will be able to establish many foreign franchises.

 

[BornTBWild]

I personally always saw nationalization as an out when you're a super warmonger-civ and somehow managed to get as far as monopolies into the game.

You can't really have trade routes with any other civ because most of them hate you and will declare war on you, thus that also means that you won't have any foreign officices, meaning that the bonus that you get from offices build are way more tame than they can be.

Nationalization kind of fixes that, although it is definetly not the priority for level 2 tenets.

 

[chicorbeef]

Well, I probably could establish enough franchises to make do with Trade Routes, and the +10% culture from trading with a franchise should be valuable enough. What other Tier 2 tenet would be valuable, then? Perhaps a synergy with Cultural Revolution's double spy steal rate and Double Agents?

 

[Emufarmers]

and since most Corporations encourage you to keep trade routes active with cities that have Franchises, you would presumably have to use your trade routes internally to get those benefits. Ie if you have Giorgio Armeier and Nationalization and you're sending your trade routes to other civs, you miss out on the "Trading with a Franchise produces 10% Culture" effect. Unless the "Foreign Franchises no longer benefit your Corporation." part in the description refers to only the bonus from each Global Franchise that every Office gets (+3 Culture in GA's case), but I would assume not.

Does anyone know offhand which part it affects? I seem to recall getting it one time and being surprised that foreign franchises still seemed to be counted toward the bonus total.

In any event, it scales pretty hard if you have a wide empire and are willing to build an office in every city: 60 bonus culture in 20 cities is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[MorphBer]

@Emufarmers I haven't tried the tenet yet but the description explicitly stats that the 2nd franchise does not count towards the limit.