using chariots to stifle your opponents?

[Oggums]

I think Creative is pretty sweet when you are conquering with your war chariots. It makes it a lot safer to lay down roads and hook up all the new resources, plus less barbarian interference.

I think if you pick up CoL before you go too far, you can get by with any civ by whipping courthouses, and possibly caste system with merchants if you're in real danger of striking troops. You can switch between those with Spiritual easily. Not to mention easy swapping of theocracy/org. religion. This is what I do with Montezuma.

 

[gunkulator]

If I whip anything in a newly conquered city, it's usually a 30 hammer obelisk. Courthouses are 120 hammers - not so easy to whip. Even then I'm not so eager to do any whipping because it makes the financial situation worse. Fewer citizens = less gold. You are right that Creative does help, although it probably saves you 1 citizen at most. Sometimes it's easier just to drop a missionary off or switch to the AI's religion to get easy culture that way.

CoL comes pretty late for an early chariot/jaguar rush. There's really no way to beeline to it. By then you can expect to see swords, horse archers, axes, spears and possibly even catapults, longbows and maces, depending on what the AI goes for. In any case, you can certainly expect 40% or higher culture defense.

Merchants specialists are very rare at the beginning of the game. The only way to get one is with a market which actually doesn't arrive all that early. Caste System doesn't come until CoL so that's no help either.

I've always thought that if I played Egypt, I'd be razing more than keeping.

 

[futurehermit]

nothing wrong with keeping your eyes open for marble and going oracle for COL. but then you're right, you're probably not gonna be chariot rushing and rushing to oracle simultaneously. i guess it depends on how far they are from you. if they're close enough you could take the cities; if not, just stifle them until you have built toward them...

 

[Oggums]

Future, if you are going out of your way to hook up marble, or sometimes even just spending time researching Masonry, you probably aren't going to make it to Oracle on higher levels. You just have to build it. Toss in a couple of forest chops and you're good to go. You pretty much need to only grab a food tech, bronze to chop, priesthood, then start building it while you research writing. Anything else and you'll likely be too slow.

Gunk, even if you don't do Oracle, you can begin reaseaching CoL while you're pumping out units, and you should be able to finish it up just from your pillaging coin before you have to end your war. Check out my attached save from tonight's Egypt game (Epic, Emperor, 220BC) and tell me if you think it's too much real estate to pull out of, without having financial or organized. It doesnt look pretty, with 9 cities at 220BC and losing gold at 0% science (if not using merchants), but I'll let you know how it turned out if you want to know.

CoL comes pretty late for an early chariot/jaguar rush. There's really no way to beeline to it. By then you can expect to see swords, horse archers, axes, spears and possibly even catapults, longbows and maces, depending on what the AI goes for. In any case, you can certainly expect 40% or higher culture defense.

In this emperor game, Washington had both horses and copper, yet I have CoL by the time I took him for six cities. If you do look at the save, you can see by the statistics in the info screen that I only had to dispatch 1 axe, 3 spears and 1 horse archer.

 

[Lord Jimbob]

I've always liked the look of war chariots but Egypt's traits are crap for early warmongering. No aggressive for cheap barracks. No organized to keep city maintenance down. No financial to pay for maintenance and unit support. Don't you quickly bankrupt yourself after you take the first couple AI cities? That has traditionally been my problem with early warfare. And the earlier you fight, the worse the problem is.

yeah that's a bit of a problem- feudalism has come on the scene- I'm #1 in score and gaining, but I am falling behind in tech. I moved my capitol closer to the center of my new empire, but it only made a marginal difference. Just got CoL and am working on courthoses to get science up over 40%. my GNP is the pits, but I did manage to hurt a third civ pretty bad and am crippling them (hopefully with some tech for peace payoff!) at present with some catapults, because the Mongols have some longbows now.

I see the crux of my game catching up in tech- my GNP is rising steadily, but the AI isn't to keen on trading me following my wars with 3 of 6 opponents. My main rival, Isabelle, is pleased however, due to our numerous resource trades and because I converted to her religion! Trying to keep her happy, although her city with the Pyramids is withing easy reach of my empire!

 

[ownedbyakorat]

If money is a problem, raze cities rather than capturing them. The effect on your opponent is the same - one less city he can use to oppose your eventual domination of the planet.

I love war chariots, myself... if you have them, you don't need to make axes at all, and it's real easy to make a big enough stack to roll over even a capital city, early.

 

[pi-r8]

I think immortals are better than war chariots. They have a +50% bonus against archers, so that's an effective strength of 6 when attacking most cities, as opposed to the war chariot's 5. More importantly, you can fortify one on top of their copper source early on to prevent them from making any spearmen, which would eat up any kind of chariot. The extra withdrawal helps too.

 

[acidsatyr]

yes, but war chariots are 5 str, so 50% vs axemen.

 

[pi-r8]

They won't have any axemen if you get there quick and pillage their copper mine.

 

[DementedAvenger]

Keshiks don't need the bonus because an archer gets such a small chance of success of winning against a Keshik (0.2% depending on promotions). Warriors "don't" (dare I say) have a chance at all.

I guess the Immortal, with it's bonus against archers would be more effective at holding the resource, but I would prefer the Keshik for its speed advantage....



...the beauty about Keshiks is that you can do the same thing to 5-7 civs at once (depending on how big you decide to have your army) with minimal amount of Keshiks because of the Keshiks speed over any terrain.

Watiggi

You're ignoring the fact that Keshiks are not only much more expensive to build, but require a very expensive technology. And you STILL haven't accounted for the fact that immortals get that defensive bonus.

 

[Watiggi]

You're ignoring the fact that Keshiks are not only much more expensive to build, but require a very expensive technology. And you STILL haven't accounted for the fact that immortals get that defensive bonus.

Look, both units have enough strength/defenses to be basically untouchable by warriors and archers. With the pillage strategy, that is all that matters here.

The Immortals are able to be built earlier and cost half as much to build as the Keshik. But you haven't accounted for the speed and strength of the Keshik. You can use less of them and have them travel between the resources and monitor them. Also when the other civs get construction and when Monty gets Iron Working, catapults and Jaguars become available which don't require resources. The strength of the Keshik helps combating them at this point.

Yes, the Immortal has advantages, but so does the Keshik. In the end, the only advantages in this strategy that the Immortal has over the Keshik is the price of the tech and the price to build them. I like the speed advantage the Keshik offers (actually it is more the consistancy of the speed that matters). It makes adaptation so much easier and I have no problems paying the extra cost for it.

Watiggi

 

[DementedAvenger]

You said it yourself: "Look, both units have enough strength/defenses to be basically untouchable by warriors and archers. With the pillage strategy, that is all that matters here."

If the benefits for choking are the same (i.e. both are untouchable by warriors and archers), then why are you advocating the higher-cost unit? HBR is a significant investment of beakers early on when there are a lot of extremely valuable technologies you could otherwise be researching. HBR's beakers will get you 71% of the way to construction.

Not only that, but Keshiks are twice as expensive to build as Immortals. With the exponential effect damage has on a unit's ability to fight, as well as the Immortals' 30% withdraw rate (as compared with 0% for Keshiks), having larger numbers of weaker units is excellent for fighting spears. If you don't believe me, create a stack of spears for the enemy in the worldbuilder. Create a stack for yourself of an equal number of hammers worth of Keshiks, and a stack of an equal number of hammers worth of Immortals (try 20 spears, 14 Keshiks, and 28 Immortals).

Keshiks are better for straight-out warring, and I'm not denying that, but this thread is talking about choking, where speed of implementation is extremely important. It's easy to get a sizeable force of Immortals out to prevent metals being hooked up on the higher difficulties - it's near impossible to do the same with Keshiks. Good luck pillaging that copper mine with spears running around all over the place.

Immortals are the only quick unit in the game besides musketeers and mech infantry that have defensive bonuses, and you continue to ignore this fact. They are practically designed for choking. If you fortify an Immortal on a copper hill, it will defend against archers at an effective strength of 8. You don't have to be a math genius to realize that this is higher than the 6 strength a Keshik would defend at. This isn't even taking into account the fact that you will have 2 Immortals (probably even more due to the extra withdraw rate) for every Keshik, and will have them MUCH earlier in the game. Even longbows are at a disadvantage attacking the fortified Immortal, and with a 2-1 production advantage, your opponent won't be able to outproduce you. In fact, if your choking skills are good enough to prevent any resources from being hooked up, the first unit that your enemy can build that has favorable odds from dislodging your Immortals from his precious resources are MUSKETS. This simply isn't the case for Keshiks. Mass catapults would probably work, but again, Immortals are very cheap and your losses can be quickly recouped. It's also hard to build catapults (or even research construction) when Immortals are running all over the place pillaging mines and cottages.


If you still think Keshiks are better for choking, then you either play at very low difficulties, have never even tried choking with Immortals, or are just being willfully stubborn. Saying things like "the only advantages in this strategy that the Immortal has over the Keshik is the price of the tech and the price to build them" is not only dismissing how incredibly huge these benefits are, but ignoring the fact that defensive bonuses means the Immortal often defends at a higher strength, and the extra 30% withdrawl rate.

 

[futurehermit]

^^ well, i'm completely sold on immortals being better for choking than keshiks, however, i would still probably rather play kublai khan in general since i prefer aggressive over expansive. but if you're playing cyrus, definitely this choking strat would be amazing imho.

but can we turn the discussion away from uus for a bit? what about choking with just regular chariots?

 

[Watiggi]

Ok, I admit defeat. I underestimated how cheap and easy they were to build. They do come out a lot more early (which I knew) but didn't realise how much of an impact it would have. It's kinda strange - I am in another thread defending the Jaguar because of how cheap and easy they are to build whereas I am doing the opposite here.

As for defense, the Immortal (and the Keshik) is only going to be attacked by archers and warriors (assuming the strategy goes according to plan). Considering the Immortal has a bonus to archers, it doesn't really matter that it has a reduced strength as this bonus puts the archers out of reach anyway. It also doesn't matter that it gets a defense bonus on terrain because it is essentially immune to the archers anyway. Likewise, the Keshik is effectively immune to the archers and warriors too but this is due to its strength and its First Strike. I did find it difficult though with the Immortals that if you don't cut the resources off fast enough and they start building axemen, spearmen and chariots, then it is harder with the Immortals to take out these units. The Keshiks strength at least helped in overcomming the spearmen and chariots. The problem I have with the withdrawl of the Immortal is A) it can't be relied on and B) if you withdrawl, it leaves you next to dead. So I don't know here. I would prefer the Keshik if the plan doesn't go the way it's supposed to.

Having said all of that, you still will not admit the advantage of faster movement. While playing I felt like a huge advantage was gone because of the loss of the Keshiks speed.

As for the choker game. The Immortals come out rather early and are cheap so I guess they can get a foot hold faster. But I did miss the speed advantage the Keshik has as it allowed them to move across the map fast to cut off all the resources. As for defense, well I see the two cancelling each other out purely in terms of what units it will face (archers and warriors). The Keshik has a higher strength thus keeping it out of reach of the archers while the Immortal has a reduced strength but it gets a bonus against archer and a bonus from the terrain, thus making it immune to archers and warriors. If the technology gets more advanced though, then the defensive bonuses of the Immortal will play a more prominant role, which could in certain instances give it a higher defense value than the Keshik depending on where it is placed.

The Immortal is clearly better at getting out there early and holding the resources, thus preventing the opponents from getting access to them. But the Keshik craps on it hands down with the speed that it can pillage the other civs. Your right though, the Keshiks are incredibly expensive when compared to the Immortal (well, actually the Immortal is incredibly cheap).

but can we turn the discussion away from uus for a bit? what about choking with just regular chariots?

Sorry futurehermit, got carried away there. Subject dropped.

Watiggi

 

[The-Hawk]

I'm wondering if anyone has done this...

. I think this strat has excellent potential at higher levels. I think I'll add it to my list of things to try...

Nice post

 

[futurehermit]

thanks!!

 

[Immaculate]

Immortals are the only quick unit in the game besides musketeers and mech infantry that have defensive bonuses, and you continue to ignore this fact.

Spanish knights

 

[DementedAvenger]

Spanish knights

Good call.

 

[GABB]

...B) if you withdrawl, it leaves you next to dead. So I don't know here. I would prefer the Keshik if the plan doesn't go the way it's supposed to.

Pumping Immortals from barracks (4 XP) and giving them flanking I, they are "far to dead", if you withdraw, it mean 1 XP and in the next turn you can promote them to flanking II, recovering immediately a half of damage and get Immune to first (like Keshiks). During your enemy’s turn they will survive because your other immortals must kill all nearby counter-attackers.

...Having said all of that, you still will not admit the advantage of faster movement. While playing I felt like a huge advantage was gone because of the loss of the Keshiks speed.

Alter some battles (barbarians included), you will promote yours immortals with flanking I and II + mobility (10 XP only) and …..voila….. they gain the keshiks speed.

This weekend I play this way (Continents / Large Map / Monarch / Epic). I built my capital built scout + worker + Barrack + warrior + settler, send the 2 scouts and get Animal Husbandry -> Wheel -> Mining -> BW. I found my second city with horses in range (remember Cyrus is creative) and begin to pump only immortals (promoted from Persepolis and un-promoted from whereeverland). In my continent I was with: China (Mao), Rome and Egypt. My closest neighbor (Mao) was destroyed and his 2 cities mine (they didn’t reach copper mine yet). After that, I went over Rome and take 3-4 cities. I captured two good-position barbarian cities too. I was running in red for a while but the money from conquest or razed barbarian cities allow me get Alphabet for tech-for-peace trades with Rome (with a hidden city only). I continued razing barb cities (getting money for tech and promotions for immortals) until get CoL. At this time I managed 9-10 cities and have enough army to attack Hatty, but I prefer wait to build me economy. I found Islam in the way and spread it to Hatty. She was pleased with me until I get MT and send big stacks of Cavalries + Catapults + Macemans and send her to exile in a isolated island.

I didn’t finish the game yet, but with my Only-Islamic continent (with my 15-20 cities and 4-5 Roman cities in tundra-ice terrain and with praetorians ), I will beeline to Assembly Line to build Factories in all my production cities with a golden age with my two GP waiting in Persepolis (Artist + Scientist). Space race, Diplomatic or Domination are doable at this time.

I really enjoy this game.

 

[Watiggi]

GABB: Good points on promoting the Immortals with withdrawl and then going for the movement bonus. With the Keshiks (and most other units), I tend to go for the Combat promotions so that might be why I didn't see the advantage of withdrawing and getting the movement bonus. I have recently gotten rather used to the extra strength bonuses that come from the Combat promotion. They are powerful when they mount up (no pun intended).

Watiggi