Viability of early rushing/warmongering

[ChesStrategy]

Hi all, I recently got G&K and as general consensus seems to indicate, rushing enemy cities early is much harder than vanilla. I don't actually prefer warmongering (that is victory via domination or conquest), but there are early game scenarios where war is inevitable and necessary (enemy civ capital starts 1-2 city radii away)

My questions are:

1. What is the earliest rush that seems viable now? (The general case, if we can say there is one; i.e. not a specific civ able to rush early like Hiawatha, etc)

2. If the earliest is catapults + other units, what is the general approach for the "rush", beeline mathematics? What parts of econ/research is worth sacrificing? What is a good indicator/size of an army to effectively take a city?

3. Finally, what should be done in the meantime before the war? Just the usual? Growing the capital in case of a tall empire? Expanding a few more cities in case of a wide one? Or are we just accruing units until we get our first catapult?

Related to my question is some reference info that might help:

1. I play on Immortal
2. Pangaea, Standard size, Standard speed, and all other options default


Thanks for all your input

 

[Ulthwithian]

Ches: The earliest rush seems like Attila. Woe betide you if a Hut upgraded their starting Warrior to a Battering Ram and he lucks into you.

Otherwise, you need a mix of melee and ranged units, with those ranged units being Siege, preferably.

So, yes, Mathematics with their Catapults seem the key component to a rush strategy now. This would imply that (if you also want Spearmen) you need 6 techs (Husbandry, Archery, Wheel, Mathematics, Mining, Bronze Working) to start the rush.

A lot, though, is Civ-dependent.

As for the meantime, taking Honor Social Policies and perhaps increasing production (Water Mill?) would be the best approach.

 

[Mesix]

I am still experimenting with new features and scenarios as I play G&K, so I don't have a well formulated answer to each of your questions. From my experience so far, I have found that a spearmen/archer rush is still viable in the early game (swordsmen work even better). Having about 4 archers to shoot at the enemy capital is key to a successful rush. In the G&K games where I have done it, I generally beeline the free settler from Liberalism, found a second city, and build units from both. I develop the first city (monument, perhaps a wonder, and maybe one other building like a library depending on long term strategy) while I tech pottery > calendar > writing > mining > bronze working (with archery and masonry thrown in the mix at different times depending on long term plans). My first city generally builds 5-6 units and the second city generally builds 2 units before I attack. 4 archers and 4 spearmen work pretty nice. Count on losing at least 2-3 units.

 

[Vidszhite]

It's pretty much impossible to early rush on higher difficulties without Catapults or Battering Rams, unless you are so fast and focused on the rush that you slam 10 Warriors/Spears down their throat before either of you get Masonry (good luck). Walls will make it so your melee units will only shave off a tiny sliver of health, while taking more than half of theirs in return, and the city bombard will be ridiculous as well, so you will lose 1-2 units per turn if you try attacking a walled city without siege units, more if they get reinforcements. However, as Attila, once I got a decent sized army (7 warriors, 4 Horse Archers, 3 Rams), I could conquer pretty much any early city that wasn't in a hugely defensible position (you'll know one of those when you see it). Took the entire Celtic civilization right as she was founding her religion (managed to take her capital before she could manage that, so I could and did raze her holy city). Could have done it with less, it was a comfortable victory with units to spare, switching out in shifts as they got too damaged to hold on.

Do note that Rams are almost as strong as Trebuchets, and an early capital on Immortal will be so strong by the time you get there that rams won't even 5-shot them, so you'll need some major catapults to capture a capital city with walls, but so long as you have a mix of massed units and the whole place surrounded, it should go down eventually.

Since all melee units are pretty much cannon fodder for cities until their health has been reduced a whole lot by the archers and siege, just spam wars/spears and happiness buildings. Once you get enough that you can comfortably surround something, accounting for those few inevitable losses you'll take from the opposing army and the city bombard, then start building up your cities as you normally would, but be mindful of upkeep costs. An early warmonger means you'll be paying a fortune on army upkeep, so you can't afford to just upgrade every city willy nilly. You'll need cities next to rivers, luxuries, and coast for the gold, as well as happiness buildings (and luxuries of course) to keep your population growing and to keep your puppets from putting you into the red. Once your gold nears the limit, start building settlers instead of more units. Raze all cities that don't give you something important. This is where cities next to Horses and Ivory are a mint, because the Circus costs no upkeep and is cheaper to build than the Colosseum.

Don't expect to get much out of your own Religion, though. A successful early Warmongering campaign on Immortal pretty much throws religion into the wind unless you get lucky with goody huts or natural wonders. However, I find that Monuments don't hurt once your cities have cranked out at least one warrior each, since social policies are always useful.

However, do note that I'm basing all this on my experience as Attila. Huns get their first siege unit with bronze working, not mathematics, and rams are far stronger than catapults and can capture cities with their attack, so they get a MASSIVE lead on other civs for when they can start on their warpath, especially since they can beeline for Iron and get their siege unit in the process.

 

[@nthony]

Pretty much what Mesix and others have said.

I tried a rush with the Mayan's last night against Germany, very early on. I got 4 Atalists and a spear man and got Berlin's defence down within a couple of turns with the atalists. However, my spear man didn't survive so I couldn't take the city!

So, count on 2-3 melee units and 4-5 archer's/chariot archers and it can be done.

 

[Stalker0]

Depends on the city I'm taking.

If its open field, I can field a mix of melee/ranged early on and take it. But if there is jungle/forest/hills blocking my ranged shot and I have to get them close, forget about it and wait for catapults.

 

[RedRover57]

You should check out Tabarnak's thread in the Strategy section. He switched from a longsword rush to composite bowmen, apparently with good success.

 

[Becephalus]

Yeah I would recommend composite bowmen, though that is a little less of a rush. Catapults are just too dicey IMO, though having 1 or 2 along can help.

 

[Xger]

Huns are, as already basically stated, ridiculous with an early rush (my current game my starting warrior got upgraded turn 4, turn 7 I captured Warsaw, turn 15 Seoul, turn 25 Lakata ((a city-state that I cannot remember how to spell)) and the 2 rams I eventually made conquered the Danes around turn 30). The method I have used for non-hunnic attack is, a pre-determined sacrificial unit. The AI nows seems to majoritily target the weakest unit. So I send in a single unit first into range of the city and unto a rough terrain. First turn it takes a hit, usually bad, and then I move everything in. I fortifiy it and usually it will last 2 more attacks, so it often means two rounds of attacks without the extra barrage.

I also think a minimum of 3 ranged attacks is needed, preferably 4, more if no siege.

 

[bcaiko]

I easily took a coastal CityState with a Natural Wonder I wanted using horsemen and triremes. The CS hadn't built a wall, though, so it was at 15 strength.

 

[mbuna120]

I easily took a coastal CityState with a Natural Wonder I wanted using horsemen and triremes. The CS hadn't built a wall, though, so it was at 15 strength.

For what its worth, I always play emperor level and I find that taking a coastal city with a trieme is worth having 3 land units. It has been my experience in G&K that taking cities with ships is waaaay easier than with land units. The galleas having the ability to do a sizeable amount of ranged damage and then move out of danger and heal makes it a far more effective siege unit than cats or trebs also imho.

 

[Wuddel]

Attila is a beast. However, at least on Immortal, after turn 30 or so the Cities hit so hard that despite the "Cover" promotion on the Battering Ram they will cripple it severly (2 shots basically).

 

[Civologist]

The easiest early rush I have found is Carthage, 5 UU ships and any coastal city is yours without losing a unit. Its an easy way to expand to 3 cities + trade routes. Usually I take 2 CS before I run into trouble with defensive units/walls. Their UUs are strong and cheap. Couple their attack with the +30hp/turn near friendly cities pantheon and you can speed up the down time between city attacks. This strategy sets up nice for a Commerce policy mid game. After taking the 2-3 City States I turn to infastructure and perpare for middle ages/renissance wars against AIs

 

[bcaiko]

For what its worth, I always play emperor level and I find that taking a coastal city with a trieme is worth having 3 land units. It has been my experience in G&K that taking cities with ships is waaaay easier than with land units. The galleas having the ability to do a sizeable amount of ranged damage and then move out of danger and heal makes it a far more effective siege unit than cats or trebs also imho.

I have to agree. If you have an option to do a naval invasion, I have yet to see a situation where that is not the far superior option.

 

[Grunthex]

Recently rushed Genghis who had the nerve to start on my continent. About 10 tiles away, but rushed him with plain old 2 warriors, 2 scouts, 4 archers. No losses. This was on King.