Water worlds

chuft

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
94
I am having trouble playing on water worlds (70-90% water coverage). While I can consistently win on Transcend on huge mostly-land worlds (unless I really get boned on the opening setup), without using crawlers or pop booms or any particular social engineering choice, I have yet to survive very long on a huge waterworld. It seems aggressive factions know where you are and can make a beeline for your little island and sea cities unimpeded by the usual obstacles of enemy empires, fungus, land/water in the way etc. and the usual defensive measures of perimeter defenses, sensors, rocky/forest/fungus terrain and having some advance warning of attackers don't apply. If you build a sea unit it can't act as police, and if you build a land unit in a sea city it can't attack an enemy naval force outside, it just has to take it on the chops. Islands of the Deep seem to come out of nowhere and destroy my sea cities and sea colony pods as well. And the Pirates run off with the game every time due to their early sea colony pod start and their huge mineral bonus on ocean shelf squares. I have yet to get Doctrine Initiative before the game is obviously over.

I am playing with some mods to make the AIs better since even Transcend doesn't usually provide much of a challenge, but few of them would apply specifically to a sea world. Mostly this seems a problem of aggressive factions knowing right where I am somehow and aggressively invading by sea. In one game by the time I had a third city founded on my little island, I had been invaded by three factions already, one of which was based over 30 tiles away. In another game by the time I discovered Formers and built a few farms and solar collectors, the Pirates showed up with a stack of seven ships and bombarded every single terraform improvement I had made off the map.

How do people survive and prosper in the first 150 turns on a sea world? I am interested in hearing your strategies.
 
Petek is right about getting to Doc: Flex (with directed research, it is Doc: Mobility, then Doc: Flex; with blind research, just check "Explore")

Once you get Doc: Flex, you basically follow the same strategy you would on land.

Instead of scouts and rovers exploring, you should build a lot of (1)-1-4 gunboats and send them out to pop sea pods. One trick: if you are entering a non-fungus square with a pod, always have 3 mp's left before you start. If you pop a IoD, you lose a mp (in addition to the mp for entering the square). This way you have a mp left to attack the IoD for points (and if you are the Gaians, you may capture the IoD).

Popping pods will get you ec and techs and gunboats are cheap.

Be sure to attack any enemy transport with your gunboats.

When you find land, islands or continents, send transports (which are available with Doctrine: Flexibility) with land exploration units if your sea units were not able to fully explore the land. Then send transports with colony pods. Land bases are much better than sea bases in the pre-fusion era. They are cheaper to build and you get more minerals from land than from sea. (If you aren't an aquatic faction, you get no minerals from the sea unless you establish a mining platform and then you get only one mineral until Advanced Ecological Engineering.)

Obviously, if you hit a continent, you can use all the tactics that you use to win in a Transcend mostly-land game. However in such a case, don't stop exploring with the gunboats you already have. Even after your gunboats have explored the entire ocean, the occasional IoD can be very profitable.

Once you get Doc Flex, switch your research to get Applied Physics (Conquer), Information Networks (Discover) and Nonlinear Mathematics. Applied Physics will give you (2)-1-1 and Nonlinear Mathematics will give you (4)-1-1.

Now you can think about taking control of the seas from the Pirates. (Even applied physics may be enough early on.) Sea bases can be conquered with only naval units. Use your naval units to attack the defenders, sea or land, in a base. Then a naval unit can occupy a sea base (note you can't do that for a land base on the coast.)

Have you found the SMAC Academy at CGN?

In particular, the Offshore Radar Platform: Your New Best Friend and associated comment thread addresses your question about water worlds strategy.

Once you have doctrine flexibility, nonlinear mathematics and armor, you should be ruthlessly patrolling the seas. Knock out all enemy naval units and sink all enemy tranports. You can blockade coastal ports. On good islands or small continents without any other factions, you can colonize and follow the same tactics you use in a mostly land based game.

If there is opposition, the sea fungus is less of barrier than land fungus (a ship can always enter a fungus square), but you can still use them to channel the enemy.

At this point, you can work toward Industrial Automation, which will give you crawlers.

From Industrial Automation, you can get Doctrine: Initiative and build the Maritime Control Center, which is obviously an important Secret Project for a water-world with the +2 movement for your naval units, free naval yards in all your bases. Doctrine: Initiative also gives you cruisers, but more importantly it gives you amphibious pod ability.

From here, besides the techs that you use in your mostly-land Transcend level victories, fusion is an important tech because the cost of sea formers and sea colony pods drops dramatically.

Now sea bases make more sense. Build your sea bases next to islands that may have been too small to colonize profitably and next to continents you control (and to enemy continents to provide a beachhead). I like building a land transport in these sea bases (transport on an infantry chassis). As long as the land transport remains in the base, land units without amphibious pod ability can travel between the sea base and adjacent land squares. In addition, the land transport can move between the sea base and adjacent land squares carrying a (non-transport) land unit.

If you terraform sea squares (sea kelp/tidal harness), you can create fairly large bases that produce a lot of energy (if you are crawling, then you only need sea kelp or tidal harness) on a square. A borehole or mines on land squares will give your sea base the necessary minerals (it is a good idea if they can produce ten minerals). If you crawl, those useless rocky squares surrounding the poles can be very useful. Send formers to them, alternate boreholes and mines and then crawl them for minerals to a sea base. If these boreholes and mines are outside the sea base radius, then the only ecological damage is from the mineral production and not from building boreholes.

One final thing: you can use sea formers to sink land bridges and enemy coastal bases.

At this point you should be able to employ all of the tactics you use for your transcend level mostly-land victories.

I took a look at your most recent Water Worlds post.

chuft said:
Well I tried another water world game, this time as the Usurpers...

If you have a saved game, post it here. Without seeing the saved game, here are some suggestions:

(1) Are you expanding fast enough? Once you get Doc: Flex, you should be expanding the same way you would on land. Instead of sending out rovers and scouts to explore, you send out gun ships. Land bases are more important than sea bases. The pirates succeed because they locate good land, especially the Monsoon Jungle, and send land colony pods there. You should be doing the same thing.

(2) You place too much emphasis on Doc: Init. The Usurpers start with Res-3 armor. So you should be going Doc: Mobility, Doc Flex, Applied Physics, Information Networks, Nonlinear Mathematics.

Once you get (4)-3r-4 foils, you can make shortwork of the Pirates. Even (2)-3r-4 will make short work of them.

(3) A infantry probe team only costs 2 rows (a standard probe team costs 3 rows). If you have two infantry probe teams per exposed base, you don't have to worry about probe teams taking over your bases.
 
Thanks for all the ideas. They are definitely helping. The "3 mps before popping a pod" is particularly useful. The offshore radar platform idea also sounds very handy (haven't gotten deep radar yet).

The reason I am obsessed with Doctrine Initiative is because the Maritime Control Center seems so crucial in a waterworld game, especially for the defense bonus you normally get from perimeter defenses in a land game.

I never thought of building infantry probe teams before, makes a lot of sense in a water world game.
 
Note the 3 mps before popping a pod only applies to pods that are in non-fungus squares. If you have cruisers or the MCC, then the rule would be 5 mps before popping a pod in a fungus square.

I forgot to mention probe foils, which are also very useful in a water world game even pre-fusion as you can infiltrate coastal bases and steal tech.

While it is important that you head toward Doctrine: Initiative, it doesn't do you much good unless you have plasma or resonance armor. The best defense of coastal bases and sea bases is to engage hostile naval forces before they reach your bases. That is probably why the offshore radar platforms make sense.

Infantry probe teams also make sense in a land game.
 
In addition, the land transport can move between the sea base and adjacent land squares carrying a (non-transport) land unit.

By the way why would you want to do that?

I have never built a land transport, I think I am missing something. What is the purpose of them?
 
Well, you could use them to move formers to save a turn and you can use them to move infantry next to a base. In ACDG6, we used them to give our combat troops a little greater range. However, with support, they are usually not cost effective.

If you have a sea base adjacent to land, a land transport is cheaper than a transport foil. Stationed permanently at the base, it allows all land units to treat the sea base as an adjacent land square even if they don't have the amphibious pod ability. The only problem is that you don't get road or mag tube movement in and out. So a crawler takes an extra turn moving out of the sea base than it would if the base was on the coast.

What you can do once all the other land units have moved in or out of the sea base is load the last land unit onto the land transport. Then the land transport moves out of the sea base and unloads the land unit, which still has a movement point left! On the next turn, the land transport can pick up a land unit that wants to go into the base and move it, which can be useful if the land unit has exhausted its movement. You can load units with no movement points onto a transport, sea or land.

Another thing is that land transports can be armored. So if it is carrying a colony pod or a attacking unit, it serves as the defender. (Remember it can make sense to have an offense unit and a defense unit stacked together rather than a single unit that has best weapons/best armor. It is cheaper. A stack is immune to mind probe. You can designate the defender, so the attacker keeps full hit points.)

You're the one that thought a chopper transport would be great if it could unload at places other than air fields or bases. (If you go to CGN, you'll see that it can; I think I suggested someone should have told you that.) A land transport isn't as good since it can only move one square (until you get the tank chassis), but it can load anywhere.

Other than the sea base situation and combat transport situations, land transports aren't very useful (usually, it is better to have formers or colony pods take an extra turn moving). I suppose you could put radar on a land transport.

Since you are a modder, there is a disabled special ability (heavy transport)

Heavy Transport, 1, Disable, Heavy, 000100100111, +50% transport capacity

that increases transport capacity. You will have to test to see if it increases a land transport from 1 to 2 (some things are rounded up in SMAC, some things are rounded down). It could make an interesting scenario if the land transport could transport two units. (Edit: a land transport with heavy transport does transport two units.)

You might also try putting drop pods on a land transport. I believe (I'll check it later in the scenario editor) that they can transport units. When they drop, I believe they take the damage, but the transported unit does not. (Edit: True.) And I think the transported unit has all of its movement points and can attack that turn with none of the penalty associated with a dropped combat unit attacking on the same turn. (Edit: Unfortunately, the transported unit loses its movement points.)
 
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