Wealth production

[CPCMaxwell]

Hi,

What is the point in making a city produce wealth, which gives you a ridiculous 10% of your production in gold, when I can have it produce cheap units that I sacrifice as soon as they show up for 25 to 30% of their production cost in gold ?

 

[Trickster7135]

There is none, at the moment. We can hope that a patch will bump this value up to at least 25%... but considering the dearth of production in this game, I really don't see why 100% would even be a problem.

If not, this will be one of the many long list of changes I'd except to see in a mod, once we get the tools.

 

[mzprox]

I didn't know you can sell units, but just for testing I tried to build a national wonder, switching production then finishing it in an other city. I belive I got 100% of the invested production from the first city in gold...so instead of building cash you can build wonders (ational wonders too) in your cities and eventualy finish them somewhere, you would get lots of cash.
I won't do this tactic, but untill they fix it's an exploit.

 

[CPCMaxwell]

The tools are available, and I think the problem is not the 10% rate, but the fact that you get richer by killing your own units in the first place.

How illogical is that ? You shouldn't get any money for killing units. It already saves you the upkeep.

 

[Trickster7135]

How illogical is that ? You shouldn't get any money for killing units. It already saves you the upkeep.

I like being able to sell workers, makes stealing workers from enemies more worthwhile. As far as regular units, considering how long it even takes to build one, you wouldn't normally ever disband one, unless you're only making them for that purpose.

 

[King of Spades]

I sometimes use the Wealth production if I'm waiting for a tech, and I want to start production of whatever I get from it as soon as possible. But this is only for a few turns, as pointed out, it's not much of a profit.

 

[CPCMaxwell]

I like being able to sell workers, makes stealing workers from enemies more worthwhile. As far as regular units, considering how long it even takes to build one, you wouldn't normally ever disband one, unless you're only making them for that purpose.

Maybe you should be able to earn money from disbanding workers you captured, but that's it. And I don't think it sould exceed 10% of its production cost, 7 gold if enough for such an easy capture.

When you get rid of a worker you produced, you do so because you don't need it that much anymore and it costs money. You shouldn't get cash money on top of that, especially if it provides you with more gold than a freaking wealth production.

I sometimes use the Wealth production if I'm waiting for a tech, and I want to start production of whatever I get from it as soon as possible. But this is only for a few turns, as pointed out, it's not much of a profit.

You should spend those turns starting a building you might need in the future, like a hapiness one, so when the time comes it will be faster to finish.

 

[Necro-]

there are a few mods that bump this up to 25-50%

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Maybe you should be able to earn money from disbanding workers you captured, but that's it. And I don't think it sould exceed 10% of its production cost, 7 gold if enough for such an easy capture.

Well that's the key thing

Hammers->Money from Build/Sacrificing units SHOULD be worse than from producing wealth (since producing wealth needs a tech)

So either
1. Lower the yield from units
2. Raise the amount from wealth
or
3. Both

I think 50% would probably be most reasonable. (a Tile can produce 1-2 'excess' Hammers with Steam, and 2 Gold with Trading post, 50% would make sure the trading post is Always a better way of getting gold.)

And then Selling units should give ~1/2 that. (20~30% is fine)

 

[Martin Alvito]

You never want to produce Wealth even at 50% of Hammers. The Hammer:Gold conversion ratio is 4:1 or worse for anything except unit upgrades, and even then it doesn't begin to approach 1:2.

 

[CPCMaxwell]

1. Lower the yield from units

I don't understand why you should get money for KILLING YOUR OWN PEOPLE in the first place, seriously.

 

[mrt144]

I don't understand why you should get money for KILLING YOUR OWN PEOPLE in the first place, seriously.

This is like the fallacy of broken windows; building stuff and destroying it creates jobs for both destroying and building replacement inventories, never mind that the labor and capital could be allocated to something actually productive.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I don't understand why you should get money for KILLING YOUR OWN PEOPLE in the first place, seriously.

Your not KILLing them you are disbanding them.

You are sending all those people back to productive jobs, beating the swords into plowshares, selling off the battleships as scrap metal, selling the uniforms to costume shops, etc.

You aren't Killing anyone.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

You never want to produce Wealth even at 50% of Hammers. The Hammer:Gold conversion ratio is 4:1 or worse for anything except unit upgrades, and even then it doesn't begin to approach 1:2.

Well the idea is How you go about making gold

There are a number of ways, and different ones Should be more or less effective

1. Build a Farm on a tile to increase population to increase trade route output.*(gives other benefits and costs)
2. Build a Farm on a tile and run a Merchant (gives other costs, few other benefits... limited by buildings)
3. Build a Lumbermill/Mine and build Wealth (requires tech)
4. Build a Lumbermill/Mine and build/Disband units
5. Build a Trade post


The order from Most to least effecieint SHOULD BE

Trading post > Wealth > Build/Disband units

Merchant Specialist could be anywhere from Trading post to Wealth
Trade Route could be anywhere below/ equal to Wealth



You Don't want Hammers->Gold->Building to be better than Hammer->Building
But more importantly, you don't want
Hammers->Gold
to be as good as
Gold

so 100% would be too high (Lumbermills would be better than trade posts.)
and 50% is a good round number

and it means 8-10 hammers here=1 hammer wherever you want.

 

[mrt144]

Your not KILLing them you are disbanding them.

You are sending all those people back to productive jobs, beating the swords into plowshares, selling off the battleships as scrap metal, selling the uniforms to costume shops, etc.

You aren't Killing anyone.

Like I said, fallacy of broken windows.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Like I said, fallacy of broken windows.

Wait so you agree or disgree with gold from disbanding?

"Disbanding" is not smashing something, it is selling it off...

I buy a car... I use it, and I sell it...
or rather, I Build a car, and then when I don't need a car anymore, I use the parts of the car for something else. (I use the parts as a gift.diplomacy, or as part of something else..rush buy, or to help maintain something else..building/unit maintenance)

It makes perfect sense considering how expensive units are.


"broken window fallacy" would be if I got gold everytime my unit was killed in battle because I need to make a new one.

 

[Martin Alvito]

He disagrees. The opportunity cost of putting the Hammers to a productive use is too high.

When you break windows to create a job, you're taking that citizen away from doing something societally productive. The unemployed guy wins (as long as fixing windows pays better than the alternative), the people whose windows got broken lose, and society loses.

But since there's a winner, politics means that it is possible to observe these scenarios in real life even though the behavior is costly to society.

Since you're the central planner for a society in the game, you don't want to break windows.

 

[mrt144]

I absolutely disagree that such unproductive decisions should be rewarded so heavily. But this is a fundamental design issue in the game where you can buy units outright for gold and the idea of opportunity cost is less important than Civ IV.

 

[Udey1]

I don't understand why you should get money for KILLING YOUR OWN PEOPLE in the first place, seriously.

seriously?

Yes- i barely got away when my squadron was disbanded in 2007. Orders came down that we weren't needed anymore. I thought they would reassign us to other squadrons in our respective professions but instead they just murdered everyone. It was terrible.

HAHA

seriously get a dictionary if you don't know what i word means and can't figure out context- lest you appear a fool on the interwebs.

 

[Martin Alvito]

I absolutely disagree that such unproductive decisions should be rewarded so heavily. But this is a fundamental design issue in the game where you can buy units outright for gold and the idea of opportunity cost is less important than Civ IV.

I don't think you're getting it.

Suppose you want a Monument. You could:

a) Build it for 60 Hammers
b) Build fifteen Warriors for 600 Hammers, disband them all for 20 Gold each, then rush buy the Monument.

I promise you that the former strategy will be more effective. The only possible exception is if you're dying for a Monument in a poor city location with a bunch of Luxuries and only the city tile Hammer. But even then you're better off building seven Horsemen, punching someone in the mouth, and rushing the Monument with the spoils.