What build order for maya ?

[Mohed]

What build order do you guys use for the mayan capital and the first couple of cities ??
Lets say, Pangea imortal+ standard rest. You are aiming for a religion and a reasonably fast NC and of course theology. When do you hit theology and when do you normally complete the NC. I am assuming tradition opener.

 

[joncnunn]

For most civs, you'd start with a scout on such a map; I'd prefer the Mayan UU (early Archer) in this case for more defense to my exploring units. Maybe even 2.
If you pick Pottery as your first tech then your first building can be your UB for science & religion.
I'm thinking plan on the Monument being granted by Legalism; so your second building would be Granary.
At this point it goes into standard Tradition tactics; probably the 2 city NC with a 3rd city built shortly after it finished.
It's just that you'll make Theology a much higher priority than it would with another civ.

 

[Mesix]

You want to spam your UB first in every city you build. This is generally true for most UB in the game, but especially the ones which come very Early like Maya and Ethiopia. After that, follow the advice above. Get Temples and Universities up ASAP when they become available as well.

 

[Browd]

Depends what level you are playing at, and what opportunities the map presents.

Given the Mayan UA, getting Theology by turn 60 (for the first Long-Count GP on turn 62) can be pretty powerful, but to do that you need to simultaneously tech quickly, build quickly and grow quickly (both for beakers and to work more hammer tiles)--not the easiest thing to pull off.

If you are playing Emperor and below, you can pursue a 1-city GL->NC strategy to make turn 60 Theology a "stretch" goal, with an early pyramid, stolen worker, bought granary (save your gold and take out loans to buy an early granary), bonus food tiles and a couple of forests to chop. Tech order would be Pottery -> Writing -> Calendar and Mining (order only matters if you have calendar luxuries and/or need to chop forests to get to the luxuries) -> Drama & Poetry (bulb Philosophy with GL) -> Theology.

You might also do this on Immortal or even Deity if you are really lucky with your start (e.g., 2-3 salts, bonus food tiles, forests covering riverside hills that you will chop anyway, early ruin gives you a key tech, such as calendar or mining, etc.), but there's great risk you miss the GL, in which case you are really behind the 8-ball. At those levels, a more typical 2-city NC strategy is much less risky, and your "stretch" goal is turn 70 Theology (for turn 72 Great Person).

Whether you first go scout or Atlatlist (I usually go scout, for earlier contact with CSs and an extra ruin or two), Pottery won't be done when you finish your initial unit, so you're either putting some turns into another scout or Atlatlist, or a worker, or, if you go Liberty, a monument. Switch to pyramid as soon as Pottery ends (more for the 2 than the faith).

 

[The Pilgrim]

I wonder if it's even possible to get Theology by turn 60.
Maya is the only civ I'm very tempted to do GL-Philo gambit with on immortal. Makes life easier. But it's iffy at best and is totally out of question on deity.

 

[Browd]

Done it several times on Immortal (most often on turn 60--lower levels turn 54+ is pretty easily achievable). Haven't done it on Deity, but haven't seen a starting location that would justify the risk. I recall someone reporting that they did it on Deity Challenge #10, but I haven't fired up that map to study the starting location.

The other issue on Deity is whether it's smart to chase 1-city GL/NC, even if it works. The other AIs will have settled cities in your face and may have half a dozen comp bows and swords loitering outside your borders by turn 60. Not much your initial Warrior, an upgraded ScAtlatlist, and an early GS can do to save your butt at that point.

 

[The Pilgrim]

I've done GL-Philo on immortal too, didn't get Theology by 60 but I don't think I tried. So I have no idea. And about DC10... Well, you can do all kind of things if you replay enough and reload enough. In my two tries on the map GL was built at 31 and 25 respectively.

1 city NC on deity is iffy even without GL. AI grabs all good land pretty fast, so unless you want to stay OCC, you'd better hurry. On isolated starts it's tempting, indeed.

 

[Browd]

Yeah, no one's going to compete with those turn times.

I recall a Deity game a few months ago where I noticed GL go on turn 51. Curious, I hit save, reloaded the initial autosave and beelined GL.

Doink! It was gone on turn 28!

I reloaded my turn 51 save and continued on my way.

 

[Tich]

Cap: Scout, Scout*, Shrine, Worker, UU, Settler, UU
City 1: UU, Shrine
City 2: Shrine, UU, Granary, Lib
City 3: Shrine, UU, Lib, Granary
City 4: Shrine, UU, rush buy Lib is possible, Granary

*Only on Standard+ sized maps. Go Scout, Worker, Shrine otherwise.

Tech Order: Pottery, Mining/AH (mining if needed AH otherwise), ~2 Luxury Techs (this obviously means that some starts are rougher than others, especially naval ones), Construction (leave at 1 turn to completion if desired), Theology, Education. Use your free GP to get a GE to rush Hagia Sophia preferably. Settling a GS isn't bad either though.

Build 6ish UUs on Immortal, finish Construction and upgrade them all to Comp Bows. You will have enough to stifle any early aggression. If you're looking to pressure a nearby Civ build a few more and "recall" your Scouts to capture cities. Don't waste time building Warriors when Scouts do the job better.

Sell all early resources for as much gold as possible. You will NOT consistently get 240g for your luxury techs but you can can trade for gold + GP5 and trade the GP5 for lump sums. Sell horses too since they can be sold in smaller lots to get max gold value. Rush buy Settlers whenever possible and try and steal at least 1 CS worker. If you don't meet many nearby Civs or if barbs screw your scouting over then rush buy Workers and build Settlers. Still, do your best to steal workers from distant/military CSes (or any CS but distant/military ones are preferred) and avoid building more than 1 whenever possible. Otherwise save your gold to rush buy your Lib in your 4th base and for Comp Bow upgrades.

 

[budweiser]

I dont think OCC can make theo by t60. I think you have to expand to hit that date.

 

[Browd]

I dont think OCC can make theo by t60. I think you have to expand to hit that date.

Without GL, I agree -- just can't get through Philosophy, Drama and Theology quickly enough with one city. As noted above, at Emperor and below, the GL is usually quite achievable. Don't bother in most non-Maya games, but it (and immediate NC) can boost you through Theology quickly.

Attached is a save I previously uploaded from the recent Maya GOTM where expansion was delayed until after NC and Theology was done on about turn 56 or so (quickly enough to research masonry and archery between finishing Theology and getting the turn 62 GP). Done it on a bunch of other games, but I don't tend to keep old saves very long.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=344673&d=1362574815

 

[The Pilgrim]

I dont think OCC can make theo by t60. I think you have to expand to hit that date.

If you mean 1 city NC, apparently, not only it's possible, but very strong as well.

Given the crappy land that I didn't even plan to play through, since it's obviously not a GL start, and cities placed mainly to be there, and extremely broke AI, the result is much better than I could expect.

Immortal difficulty, pangaea, all standard.
GL - t40.
NC - t53.
Religion founded on t71 or t72, enhanced on t73 with rushed HS.
Tradition finished - t81.
Education - t85.
Renaissance unlocked on t92 I think, maybe t93 with Oracle picking Rationalism opener, and Secularism kicks in 4 turns later. And there is room for improvement.
Timing is pretty perfect. I think I know now what's my favorite Maya strategy is. I got lucky with CS, but unlucky with everything else. So in case of GL start, I'd say it's robust enough. Not on deity though.

Spoiler :

 

[Unresolved]

Hmm, how are you getting education before t90? I've only done it before t100 once, and that was with Babylon :\.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Early NC + planted academy on t61 + 4 pyramids did the trick. Usually you can't.

 

[Unresolved]

Ah okay. I was just wondering since everyone always talks about Education before t90.

 

[sufficiency]

Sorry for hijacking this thread: can someone remind me again when the Mayans get a new free GP on standard speed? I can't find this info anywhere.

 

[Browd]

Turns 62, 72, 86, 101, 117, 133, 152, 183, 234 and 433. But you need to finish Theology 2 turns before the turn the first GP spawns (e.g, by turn 60 for the turn 62 GP, etc.)

 

[jeespoks]

I've done GL-Philo on immortal too, didn't get Theology by 60 but I don't think I tried. So I have no idea. And about DC10... Well, you can do all kind of things if you replay enough and reload enough. In my two tries on the map GL was built at 31 and 25 respectively.

1 city NC on deity is iffy even without GL. AI grabs all good land pretty fast, so unless you want to stay OCC, you'd better hurry. On isolated starts it's tempting, indeed.

I think GL is more possible on Deity as it's commonly believed. I used to play quite a few OCC games where GL is a no-brainer, if you can get it and depending on ruin luck and start location, you can get it by T32-35. I think earliest I got was T28.

GL in T25 by AI is fortunately rare, I see it often go T30+. Two workers and at least four forests to chop by T22-24 will usually give you GL on around T32-34. Another think is, is it worth sacrificing so much? I don't do it usually if not playing OCC. You'll sacrifice early growth, exploring and tile improvement and all your gold and gpt since you have to buy tiles and possibly a worker if you don't hardbuild it in time (and if you do, then you haven't built Granary and only one scout). And of course, there's a very good possibility you won't still get it. Then it's either restart the map or be even more behind AI.

I went for it in DC10 because of Maya UA and ruin luck (1+ pop and gold) but still I'm not sure if it was worth it since it took longer to get gold for settlers. One think I do though if go for GL is (dunno if it really helps ) that I try not to sell embassies.

 

[Mohed]

You want to spam your UB first in every city you build. This is generally true for most UB in the game, but especially the ones which come very Early like Maya and Ethiopia. After that, follow the advice above. Get Temples and Universities up ASAP when they become available as well.

I havent played the mayan before so thats why im asking. I was thinking of loading the challenge 10 map and there is 4 wheat in range of your cap. I would go scout monument comfortably but then im a bit unsure. I would like to go worker per standar to start getting the lux/tile improvements online but then again you have the pyramide witch will get you to theology faster and also the granary witch is so strong with that amount of close wheat, witch will give you everything faster.

What seams most tempting to me is to go for the worker and then rush buy the pyramid while building the worker. Then go granary library while saving up for rushing a settler. But will you then get a descent religion on time, not so familiar with the religion part of things.

Second city would need to build lib first if close to philo or if you can buy it then of course pyramid first.

 

[The Pilgrim]

I think GL is more possible on Deity as it's commonly believed. I used to play quite a few OCC games where GL is a no-brainer, if you can get it and depending on ruin luck and start location, you can get it by T32-35. I think earliest I got was T28.

GL in T25 by AI is fortunately rare, I see it often go T30+. Two workers and at least four forests to chop by T22-24 will usually give you GL on around T32-34. Another think is, is it worth sacrificing so much? I don't do it usually if not playing OCC. You'll sacrifice early growth, exploring and tile improvement and all your gold and gpt since you have to buy tiles and possibly a worker if you don't hardbuild it in time (and if you do, then you haven't built Granary and only one scout). And of course, there's a very good possibility you won't still get it. Then it's either restart the map or be even more behind AI.

I went for it in DC10 because of Maya UA and ruin luck (1+ pop and gold) but still I'm not sure if it was worth it since it took longer to get gold for settlers. One think I do though if go for GL is (dunno if it really helps ) that I try not to sell embassies.

GL goes sub 35 in almost all of my games and Writing ruins is something you need to reroll/reload a lot for it. In addition, as you say, if you don't get it, it's a reroll. So no, thanks. Even for OCC. If I want to play for luck, I'll fill a lottery ticket, I'm playing Civ for strategy.
Btw, I'm not sure if it was you who Browd referred to by mentioning DC10. I didn't realize you've gone for GL until now, but I believe that if you have, you did it in a legit way. So I definitely didn't mean you.