What existing civ will benefit the most from BNW?

Which existing civ will benefit most from BNW?

  • Arabia

    Votes: 27 12.9%
  • Austria

    Votes: 2 1.0%
  • Carthage

    Votes: 41 19.5%
  • England

    Votes: 10 4.8%
  • Ethiopia

    Votes: 4 1.9%
  • Greece

    Votes: 17 8.1%
  • Inca

    Votes: 5 2.4%
  • Iroquois

    Votes: 2 1.0%
  • Netherlands

    Votes: 9 4.3%
  • Polynesia

    Votes: 61 29.0%
  • Siam

    Votes: 3 1.4%
  • Sweden

    Votes: 8 3.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 21 10.0%

  • Total voters
    210
Songhai.

Because there will be less gold available, their UA will still be giving them a nice amount of gold when hunting barb camps. If they go to war, well, capturing cities will boost their treasury.

If Mud Pyramid Mosque keep the +2 culture (i heard somewhere that all non-Monument buildings give less culture now, so MPM can become even better), it will remain a great UI, powerful and useful to almost anything they want to do. Oh, and the new Piety tree: Half hammers for MPM? Yes please.

Because you will want to go Horse tech's, you will access TR's and have the Mandekalu's available for you to steamroll people ( Hoppefully :))

Overall, i think they get a lot of small improvements, that when summed up together, raises their potencial to a very good Civ to play.
 
Yup!

@CrafyBison - You say you think defensive bonuses will be less important: why? (Just curious, I don't find defensive bonuses especially great in most of my games now - defending is usually easy enough without them.)

I think the lack of money for warmongers (due to lack of friends and therefore lack of good trade routes (the new main source of income for many), combined with the potential for lots of enemies to destroy your routes) will lead to a more peaceful game. Hence defensive bonuses less useful in general, as there will be fewer steam rolling civs, and they will suffer greater financial hardships.

@migalhone - Yup, I think Askia will be one of the very few heavily warring civs which will become stronger, along with England, maybe China, and that's about it.
 
There are a few things that make developed cities more desirable:
1. The cities' gold output is factored into the TR's equation
2. Certain buildings give a modifier to gold from TRs
3. Larger cities will have larger cultural borders, meaning more connected resources in their borders, meaning better TRs

So having longer TRs will mean more options to trade with developed cities (and don't forget that one cannot have more than one TR with the same origin and destination!).

Edit: Also what Hans said.:)

Do we know if larger population increases the yield? It seems that it ought to.
 
The Huns get a small benefit in the very, very early game since they start with Animal Husbandry. They can start trade routes immediately.
 
Any civ with coastal bias and ability to control ocean early/mid game will be in a solid position. You need roads or railway to access land trade so your limited to your own cities for the most part.

Routes also pay more based on length so setting up a sea trade route early game with the furthest away CS might be very strong. There's also religious and cultural spread so it must be possible to convert CS one at a time by changing trade routes. A beeline for Naval techs and Religion could be a good tactic. Are there any religion focused civs with a coastal bias?
 
Like the title says: which of the old civs from vanilla, dlc`s and gods and kings will benefit the most from the new expansion.

I was thinking of playing my first game as Rome. Giving my city 1 or 2 growth boost from the caravans. Will this be possible? Can u give your capital extra food and production (or only your expansions)? And can u do it twice?

Thanx,

Moderator Action: Merged with existing thread. :)
 
I think with the inclusion of Venice as well as Austria, all the CS civs like Siam, Greece and Sweden will be weaker (which is a shame cos I love Sweden).

I also think with the increased need for diplomacy (TR's) in order to make dollar, most of the pure Domination civs will also be even weaker. I also think that defensive bonuses will not be required so much, so Ethiopia and the like could also suffer.

I kind of see your point on the City State focused Civs, but only slightly. Venice doesn't convert City States to allies like Siam, Greece and Sweeden do; Venice's puppetted city states are useless for the Diplomatic Victory. Yeah, Venice could bork up the Diplomatic Victory for someone else, but a quick DoW and a liberation would just make that city state alliance even stronger. Plus, with as many Civs as there are in game now...how often are Greece, ect., going to have to compete with Venice?

Domination civs clearly to a hit, though. Not only is the world congress and its potential for sactions or a standing army tax going to hang over the head of a domination civ like the sword of damocles, but trading routes and the necessity for a declaration of friendship for lump sum gold is going to make an army more unaffordable. Now we hear that in BNW, Domination Victory requires you to control all (ALL!) the original capitals in order to win. Good luck with that against a runaway on a Huge map.
 
If Venice's ability works like Austria's, you won't be able to liberate the CS once they take it, because it'll lose its CS status permanently.
 
I kind of see your point on the City State focused Civs, but only slightly. Venice doesn't convert City States to allies like Siam, Greece and Sweeden do; Venice's puppetted city states are useless for the Diplomatic Victory. Yeah, Venice could bork up the Diplomatic Victory for someone else, but a quick DoW and a liberation would just make that city state alliance even stronger. Plus, with as many Civs as there are in game now...how often are Greece, ect., going to have to compete with Venice?
My point wasn't so much about diplo victory which no longer appears to be 'just buy all the CS and get the UN' but looks like you'll have to get popular things passed to increase votes. The point was more along the lines of the bonuses the CS's give. Venice's GM will target enemy CS's cos (I don't think) they need to be friends to flip them. That means that all of Siam's food, culture and faith is in danger! I suppose I see this was about Siam more than Greece or Sweden, but in part applies to all. I guess I overplayed it a little cos you won't get Austria or Venice in every single game, but with 2 CS hoarder AI's it's going to be annoying more often.
 
Here are my thoughts about who will receive which indirect bonuses in BNW.

America:
+ with no water gold every early gold is great. And with cheaper tiles buying you can save more of it

Arabia:
+ obviously new UA is great by itself but there is also a synergy with UB. Bazaar is a unique market, which now also gives 2 gold per trade route.

Austria:
- by marrying a CS they will get less votes in WC
+ has an option to choose between extracting an artifact or creating a landmark on antiquity sites in former CSs territories (rather than simply extracting)
+ better GWAM generation with coffee houses

The Aztecs:
+ can defend both military and culturally at the same time against high-turism civs

Babylon:
+ in my experience I usually beelined writing, settled a free scientist, built the Great library, then got drama&poetry plus the Oracle or philosophy and NC. I can see some benefits here: there is also the Parthenon wonder at drama&poetry, might be useful (but we don't now the exact benefits yet:)) plus better science means you can probably get WC, antiquities and an ideology earlier - but it's all really a long shot.

Byzantium:
+ Early piety and thus religion plus possibly two reformation beliefs sounds like a very strong improvement. Probably gonna need to delay getting tradition or liberty benefits at the start though

Carthage:
- no production bonuses from harbor (moved to lighthouse)
+ I can't find a source but I remember reading that the harbor now provides some TR bonuses (and still create a city connection I presume). So apparently Carthage is a more of a trade civ now (plus you will definitely want to go Exploration). And you can protect your naval TRs with some quinqueremes very effectively.

The Celts:
+ early piety can help you create a very, very early religion if you want too, but I would rather say that the Celts are forcing the other civs to go early piety rather then tradition /liberty if those civs dont want to lose the best beliefs to them (e.g. if the Celts and, say, India both start in tundra, the latter will want those quicker shrines to be able to get the faith per tundra belief faster than the Celts).
+ Also there is an SP in the aesthetics tree, which allows to build opera houses 50% faster.

China:
+ Early gold from UB is even better now that river/water tiles gold is gone so you can slightly delay research Animal Husbandry/Sailing if you want other techs first.

Egypt:
+ new wonders to spam:) a possible minor benefit: getting the world wonder of their chosen ideology faster than other civs also means a free tenet;
+ no maintenance gold from UB means you can get a TR or two domestical rather than international. And domestic TRs means even more production for wonders (just think about it!) or more food/production for low-pop cities (happiness bonus from UB is great when going wide)

England:
+ you can have both a spy and a diplomat right at the renaissance. Or even two diplomates if you really want to

Ethiopia:
? There is an Order tenet which gives local happiness from monuments (i.e. UB) and also some production bonuses towards them but it is really late. Maybe good for modern Era starts?
+ same as the Celts in the religion aspect.
+ there is an SoPol in the aesthetics tree, which allows to build monuments 50% faster. And aesthetics unlocks as early as classical era!

France:
The French Revolution is coming! Let us break the Ancient Regime! :)

Greece:
+ More CS buddies means more WC votes.

The Huns:
+ Ability to build a caravan and one trade route right at turn 0. Although you're going to be warmongering, not trading but a domestic TR is still good, just need to get a granary. And let's not forget around three hundred new potential city names from new civs :-D

The Inca:
+? no hill movement penalty probably means pillaging an enemy TR and getting away with it before the defenders can retaliate if you attack from behind a hill. Also they can get to an antiquity site on a hill faster. But that's all situational. Lesser tile improvement cost is good but at the time you're gonna build those roads your TRs should be already up and running, I guess.

The Iroquois:
+? Very rarely get an antiquity site faster if it is far from the tiles where you would build a road normally and is deep within the forest. Also their AI is the most famous expansionist so he will got almost all of them in his territory anyways:)

India:
+ Your UBs know gives you defence on two fronts simultaneously: militaristic and cultural. Plus some turism is good. Since you're likely to stay tall and thus have no problems with building national wonders, universal healthcare tenet (which is always available) can boost your happiness even more.
Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Depending on who got there first, India AI will either nuke everybody without being nuked at return or cannot nuke at all

Korea:
+ Pretty much the same as Babylon. Faster techs means earlier WC, archeology, ideology

The Maya:
+ UB plus piety opener plus liberty means wide empire with quick faith and science.
? If you can choose a Great Writer, an Artist and a Musician separately rather than only one of them as a part of UA that means a great benefit towards CV. Note, that we don't know if this is the case.

Netherlands:
- it's now harder to simply sell all those luxuries without some DoFs, and because the Dutch almost always want to sell them it is even more painful to them than to the other civs

Polynesia:
+ a chance to find every other civ in game before anyone else does on maps with many oceans like Continents or Islands. That means a slightly better chance to found a WC.
+ Moai gives many precious culture and later some tourism.

Rome:
+ If I understand correctly, domestic TR system has a great synergy with UA after researching Metal Casting. Imagine that: 1. Build a workshop in Rome. 2. Sent each TR available from Rome to other major cities of yours. Now they have UA and TR production bonuses towards a workshop. 3. Build many workshops that way. 4. Switch all TRs backwards and have multiple production bonuses in Rome. 5. Build any building that you want here 6. Repeat steps 2 and 3 for that building. 7. Repeat steps 4-6 for every building.
Although this is going to be a management nightmare but it is really worth it.

Siam:
+ as for every bit of extra culture, the wat and CS culture is good, although you should have a couple of great works at the time of wats already for pure culture purposes.

Songhai:
+ early gold from barb camps is great. Plus UB does not require gold too and gives precious culture

Spain:
+ new +6 food and +6 production natural wonders (I do believe they are confirmed, right?) will become +12. That is gargantuan! If they're on the map of course.
Also the "+5 culture from NWs" resolution is great for them.

Sweden:
+ less problems with gold trading, because they are likely to want more DoFs anyways.

As for the Denmark, Germany, Japan, Mongolia, Persia, Russia and the Ottomans I can see no special benefits nor penalties. Although for warmongers in general (which most of the said civs are) there are,at on hand, some great new tenets, especially in Autocracy. On the other hand, domination victory is harder now that you have to conquer every other capital.
 
The Huns:
+ Ability to build a caravan and one trade route right at turn 0. Although you're going to be warmongering, not trading but a domestic TR is still good, just need to get a granary. And let's not forget around three hundred new potential city names from new civs :-D
Don't forget you can make trade routes with the CS's, so it doesn't matter if you're warmongering with the AI civs, you can still have international trade routes.

Netherlands:
- it's now harder to simply sell all those luxuries without some DoFs, and because the Dutch almost always want to sell them it is even more painful to them than to the other civs
You can still sell them for gold per turn or trade them for luxuries you don't have. You're only blocked from the lump sum gold trades without a DoF. Trading your single copy of a luxury for another luxury nets 2 additional happiness, so you can expand or grow more, hit golden ages sooner, etc.
 
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