[R&F] What should Firaxis do with England?

[acluewithout]

England are getting "buffed" again, so Pax Brit now gives +1 free melee unit when you settle on a new continent and when you build a RND.

It's fair to say I'm not impressed by these changes. See here, but also here and here.

I thought I'd ask the community how they think England should be improved.

A few additional thoughts: (1) I think people should assume Pax Brit can't be reversed so you get a unit when you capture cities (either other civs or whatever). It seems like there is some technical or balance reason why Firaxis haven't reversed this change, and (2) I don't think the goal necessarily needs to be to make England super-strong - it just needs to be fun.

 

[acluewithout]

My suggestions for are basically this:

• Royal Navy Dockyard is revised as follows. Cost remains the same. Grants an additional +1 Great Admiral points, +1 movement to all naval units built or upgraded in a city with this district, and +2 gold and +4 loyalty if built in a city on a foreign continent (no additional loyalty from being built on your home continent). You receive an additional +1 trade route for each continent that you have at least one Royal Navy Dockyard (including your home continent). [The mechanic of getting a free unit for settling on a foreign continent or building some particular district could maybe recycled as an ability granted by a World Wonder or a Golden Age Dedication.]

• Victoria’s Leader Ability, ‘Pax Britania’, is changed: Receive a 50% discount on purchasing and upgrading melee units with gold (cannot be stacked with Mercenaries card), and Melee units fighting on foreign continents earn experience 50% faster. Unlock the Redcoat unique unit at Military Science.

• Buff settling on foreign continents generally. My suggestion is that improved luxury resources in colonial cities (ie cities on a foreign continent) receive an additional +1 gold after you research Colonialism.

 

[Sostratus]

You receive an additional +1 trade route for each continent that you have at least one Royal Navy Dockyard (including your home continent).

When they decided to be very heavy handed with england and not macedonia regarding free cities, this was actually the first thing that came to my mind. It's not a total fix to what they did to Pax, but it's a nice QoL buff.

I actually really liked England getting military units for settling cities and taking cities on other continents. I thought it was fun.

But anyways- we have 3 components of the civ here.
British Museum: cultural aspect
RNDY: economic/seafaring aspect
Her Majesty Victoria, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland Queen, Defender of the Faith, Empress of India: Global imperial expansion aspect
I shall never apologize for giving proper recognition of a past Official Visitor of my College

So really, we need to look at the civ as a whole and not just the Pax ability. I think the british museum is fun enough and doesn't really need to be changed.
But RNDY and Pax are neither particularly strong- so we can either up the power found in them, or also look at their synergy.

Here's a rough sketch of some changes to keep England focused on being an imperial power that has an intercontinental empire in the age of civs like korea and the zulu. Numbers are rough examples.

On the Pax Side, preserving the focus of the British Empire in its colonial heyday is key. How that is achieved, could be military, could be other things. Beyond the free melee unit, another aspect is looking the Raj or colonial governance. Casa del Cont. has bonuses for governors on other continents; perhaps Pax could give something in this space. Since off continent cities suffer so badly from loyalty, I would put this piece here as well (and move it from the dockyard.)

Pax Britannica :

1. Free melee unit when you settle a city on a foreign continent
2. Governors on foreign continents grant an additional +4 loyalty to their city, and additional +2 loyalty to all of your cities within 9 tiles. [Amani's prestige promotion.]
3. Governors on foreign continents grant +15% growth to their city.
4. (Unlock Redcoats at military Science.)

HM's RNDY:

1. +1 movement to all naval units built or upgraded in a city with this district.
2. +1 gold for each luxury resource tile in cities on foreign continents. (Adds to the adjacency.)
3. +0.5 gold for each specialty district in cities on your home continent. (Adds to the adjacency.)
4. Provides +1 trade route capacity. Limit one per continent.

Why I chose these bonuses:
Foreign colonies are risky because:

1. They are hard to defend
2. Loyalty
3. Also Loyalty

Foreign Colonies as nice because:

1. They grant extra luxury resources
2. They give new trade targets

The risks are addressed in Pax. #1 covers defense if you found colonies. Like Cape Town. If you're seizing cities, you presumably have an army, so I don't want to add too much power. #2 covers loyalty if you invest your governance resources into your empire and #3 helps grow your colonies so they can generate more loyalty inherently. Remember, England had great success in actually getting colonial populations where other nations (like those total losers in France) failed. #4 is because we must paint the globe British Red .
The Rewards are amplified by the RNDY.
#1 is obligatory naval boost. #2 is to motivate the actual reason for getting colonies in the first place: raw materials for industry and trade goods for the merchants. By giving an adjacency buff from the tiles directly without them actually having to be adjacent, RNDY can become very powerful. The Home continent bonus is there to let England get something out of the RNDY in case they cannot achieve their empire. We don't want to totally shaft them!

Together, these changed abilities would hopefully encourage England to create powerful colonial territories centered around their governors, rather than the occasional outpost for a couple luxes. For risking this venture, they are rewarded with extra trade routes, and powerhouse harbors generating a great deal of commerce for the empire.

Alternatives for Pax might include a reverse-teddy roosevelt of giving extra combat strength fighting on other continents, or making the colonial war CB easier to use (any civ with a capital on another continent could be the target) and grant extra combat strength/movement.
Alternatives for RNDY might include making a colonial bonus to be a direct boost to the luxury tiles themselves (like +1 production and gold to the tile.) Or increasing its trade route yield- it could grant +3 production domestically (instead of +1) and give +4 gold to outbound international trade routes, for example.

 

[acluewithout]

@Sostratus There is some really good stuff there.

A few thoughts on your suggestions, and comments on mine:

- Pax B is really a mess now in R&F. I think it’s hard to make the free unit thing work at all. At any rate, I don’t think just getting units from settling on foreign continents quite works for England. Pax B original flavour had both a peaceful and offensive quality to it, given you got units both from settling and taking cities. Just getting units from settling I think is too peaceful, and too tactically two dimensional. My reason for suggesting discounts on purchasing units with gold is that it’s kind of a DIY Pax B - if you spend the gold, you can (sort of) have a ‘free’ unit when you settle or conquer a civ. I thought it would also synergise with England’s better gold production generally.

- I’d be happy with loyalty coming from either governors or the RND. Governors makes more sense - I don’t see how a harbour can generate loyalty. The only problem is, if you make loyalty part of the leader ability (Pax B), then England doesn’t have an inherent loyalty boost for foreign continents. ie if you have a different leader they won’t automatically have a loyalty bonus for foreign continents. Perhaps RND should still give a loyalty bonus, but only when you have a governor in the city. Maybe Pax B could then give additional loyalty from having a unit in the city.

- I like your changes to RND adjacency. Just two points though: first, harbour gold adjacency for harbours also turns into production adjacency once you build a shipyard. I think this is critical for the RND - the current +2 gold gives England more gold, but also more production eg for ship building. Second, I think colonial cities need a buff for everyone. As the game stands currently, there’s not enough incentive to settle off continent, which means there is less competition for doing that.

- I wouldn’t want to see a reverse teddy type bonus. A flat bonus to combat strength is very passive and boring gameplaywise. I actually think Teddy’s bonus is quite flawed that way, particularly on higher difficulties. I mean, you play higher difficulties in part so the AI gets combat bonuses, but then Teddy offsets those bonuses with his own bonus. Ugh.

- I also think bonuses to trade yields specifically for England is not great. England’s thing in Vanilla was that it had the same trade routes as everyone else - just more of them. That was at least a little unique, and I’d hate to lose that.

- Another option might be to ditch Pax B, and create a whole new ability. Perhaps England could get an extra economic card slot (given Adam Smith has lost his), although that’s probably not right for a leader ability.

 

[historix69]

Originally posted in another thread :

In the high time of the British Empire, it was a leading nation in science, economics, industrialization, military, etc. ... (maybe culinary art excluded.)
England should get a loyalty bonus when founding cities on another continent (3rd world) where neighbouring civs are way back in Research, maybe +1 loyalty per Tech England has more than the neighbouring civ.

(Example :
England has 50 techs, India has 40 techs -> England gets +10 loyalty for cities in India.)

 

[Ellerby]

Something that occurred to me is just how situational England are. With that in mind a relatively simple adjustment springs to mind.

How about if England's starting location i.e the tile the settler actually starts on was hard coded to be a continent of a specific size, (arbitrary number incoming) say 9 tiles in every direction or something or even just X amount of tiles in any configuration, whatever . This would nicely reflect England's tiny size and mean they get to leverage their bonuses every game.

Just an idea. I'm sure there are flaws with it. What do you think guys?

 

[acluewithout]

I certainly think England would benefit from some better maps - something where you have small islands and large continents, so England could start in an island.

How the game handles continents is weird. I can usually make the continent thing work though - but it does require aggressive exploration and a willingness to push settlers early and then spend many turns moving them to distant shores.

Another option for Pax B would be: (1) lose the Sea Dog and make the Redcoat England’s unique unit; (2) completely recast Pax B as something unconnected with getting melee units.

Maybe Pax B could give %discounts to building harbours and encampments on foreign continents and some sort of loyalty boost from Governors.

If they did that, I’d still want to see some extra trade routes and some sort of loyalty boost in the UA. Redcoats would also need to be cheaper as you’ll have to build them now (or maybe one of the Redcoats abilities is that it’s cheaper to buy with gold).

 

[Sostratus]

Just two points though: first, harbour gold adjacency for harbours also turns into production adjacency once you build a shipyard. I think this is critical for the RND - the current +2 gold gives England more gold, but also more production eg for ship building.

I had that in mind- hence specifying that the gold bonuses would count towards adjacency despite not really being adjacent. Originally I was thinking there should be a gold bonus abroad and a direct production bonus at home, precisely to highlight the home vs colony dichotomy. Plus, you know, help england get that expeditionary force together to rule the seas. But, if you just create more gold adjacency, then you have gold now and production when you get the shipyard up. My biggest peeve with RNDY as it is is that if you get stuck on your continent then it's an awful unique district compared to some of the others. +2 gold off continent is nice but not exactly a great bonus. Compared to more mild UDs like the Bath that gives an amenity and extra housing, or the acropolis giving you much better culture and an envoy. If the RNDY right now were changed to be "+1 trade route if the city doesn't have a market. Grants a free Trader unit upon completion." that would probably be better than the +2 gold. The loyalty is nice but, as Victoria has written elsewhere, it's not exactly going to save you from that minefield of -20 you are wading into on a lot of foreign shores (and you only get it upon completion of the district!)

The only problem is, if you make loyalty part of the leader ability (Pax B), then England doesn’t have an inherent loyalty boost for foreign continents. ie if you have a different leader they won’t automatically have a loyalty bonus for foreign continents.

My sense is that Firaxis intends to have most civs remain with one leader- the second leader ability was there for certain play style differences (gorgo v pericles) and to help out modders. But then, I thought about who the other leader would be if they did add one; almost certainly Queen Elizabeth or Churchill. Neither of whom really have the whole "mega colonial empire" vibe going, but some other points of England (trading, cultural legacy, etc) can be retained in the uniques.
Ultimately Pax B should, if the goal is intercontinental empire, aim to help england get that empire and also help her keep it. And if the Civ is going to be oriented around that, then the sum of its parts should reinforce each other to get there. I think the Mongols and the Zulu are very good examples of making all the uniques work together while having a less monolithic focus than Alexander.

 

[bonafide11]

England should get a loyalty bonus on other continents. That would mimic their colonization under Victoria.

 

[acluewithout]

@Sostratus Agree with all those points.

I think part of figuring out England is to improve a few other mechanics for everyone: specifically, the value of colonial cities vs. cost of establishing them, ability to maintain loyalty in colonial cities, and harbours.

General changes:

- Colonial cities could be buffed a few ways. I’d suggested extra gold from luxes on foreign shores. But equally, just getting +1 gold from a lighthouse or market on foreign shores would probably make colonial cities worthwhile. Players could then amplify that with colonial policy cards.

- Governors could boost loyalty for colonial cities, eg specific governor (maybe Victor) could boost loyalty in colonial cities, or a new governor focused on colonial cities could be created, and or there could be a policy card which makes governors in colonial cities more powerful.

- Harbours and or coastal cities could use a small buff. Maybe Harbours and Commecial Hubs should both get a +1 adjacency bonus from industrial zones and or adjacent luxuries or something.

England:

- I’m tending to think Pax should have some impact on loyalty, perhaps even then losing the whole free unit thing altogether. But I think some loyalty boost should still be baked into the Civ,l as part of its settle other continents shtick.

- So. Maybe RNDs don’t give loyalty but otherwise stay the same plus give some extra trade routes (eg +1 for having at least one each different continent). Maybe lose the extra gold from being on foereign shores depending on how colonial cities are buffed.

- Maybe England gets a new UA that still gives it a British Museum, but also additional loyalty in colonial cities (perhaps linked to number of districts, +2 loyalty, and +2 per district in that city).

- Pax B then gives additional loyalty from governors in foreign cities, maybe also improved gold generation in foreign cities, and %discount building harbours and encampments in foreign cities. Plus the Redcoat.

 

[acluewithout]

Another solution which has been floated before (and is huge cop out) would be to give England an economic card slot. That slightly doubles up with Big Ben thematically, but it could work. The problem is that it would be so powerful, you’d have to really limit what else England gets.

So. You’d have a new UA that gives both an economic card and the British Museum. The card slot could either be available from the start or unlock at some point, eg when you select a second tier government. Actually, you’d probably have to lose the British Museum (which would be sad). Either way, a policy slot and the museum, or just the slot, is very powerful.

You keep RND, but no extra loyalty, and certainly no extra trade routes. So no hard coded loyalty bonus for expansion connected to the Civ itself - alternate leaders need either their own bonus, or have to do without one.

Pax B gives a unit when you settle offshore (not for RND), a small bonus loyalty from garrisoned units or governors in foreign cities, and the Redcoat. You could maybe move the RNDs +2 on foreign continents to Pax B, so the RND by default is neutral on whether it’s expansion focused or not.

Maybe buff the Sea Dog, or maybe replace it with Ship of the Line or Dreadnaught (neither of which should be uber powerful). Depending on balance, you might leave the unique unit alone.

That would be a very boring fix, but it would be fine. Everything would synergise, but really just because a policy card slot synergises with everything. eg the card slot would let you boost trade, and also run harbour adjacency.

England, the birthplace of parliamentary democracy, would then parallel Greece (with its wild card slot) and America (with its sort of wild card slots).

 

[acluewithout]

@Sostratus You know, thinking about this more, I think your suggestions are really spot on. Loyalty and foreign continents should just be a Victoria thing. England (and so the common theme between different English leaders) should just be Navy and Trade. I think perhaps your suggestions could go further, and just get rid of the free melee unit from Pax B altogether.

Perhaps this would be cleaner:

- Pax B gives England a 50% discount for building the RND and encampments on foreign continents. RND on foreign continents get +2 gold (adjacency). Governors in colonial cities give an extra +4 loyalty and +1 culture per district in that city. Unlock Redcoat.

- Museum stays the same.

- RND is exactly the same, except it doesn’t give gold for being on another continent or loyalty (it gets that from Pax B instead). England gets +1 extra trade route for each continent it has at least one RND on.

- Maybe buff the unique unit or swap it for a Ship of the Line or other naval unit.

- Buff colonial cities for everyone (England and everyone else). Maybe a lighthouse and market in a colonial city produce +1 gold.