What's the Point of Crossbowmen?

[bioelectricclam]

Just wondering what is the point of having 2 Medieval versions of the Axemen. Is it so that Macemen aren't the only counter to Macemen? Not only does it seem redundant gameplay wise...historically it doesn't make much sense either. Crossbows were too slow to reload for use against infantry; instead they were used in siege situations (doesn't matter if it takes time to wind a wyndlass if you have a wall in between you and your enemies). Ultimately the Longbow made a much better anti-infantry weapon. Gosh that got off topic. Anyways...maybe they could make Crossbowmen more like a counter to Trebuchets to remove the redundancy and to reflect the historic use of the Crossbow as a defensive weapon mostly used in sieges (even though they were more an anti-siege tower and battering ram weapon than a trebuchet deterent).

Anyways, just wondering why they have macemen and crossbowmen when macemen basically replace crossbowmen immediately after you research crossbowmen. Maybe if crossbows didn't require iron...but I digress.

 

[Lord_Azazel]

i see your point, but one thing is for certain, it adds flavour and if you remade them to repeating crossbowmen like the chukonus chinese i believe they do really appear good against infantry i would believe...

 

[FuRRie]

The normal Crossbowmen is indeed not to usefull.
But the Chu-Ko-Nu is a miracle boy Collatarel Damage is just insane on a anormal attacking unit.

 

[Padraig]

They can be used to counter macemen...but there are more effective ways of doing that.

 

[Chose]

i do use crossbowmen, they are not too much like macemen. The reason is because they are not melee, you can get them pretty early on and they are a great counter to both axemen and macemen. If there was no crossbowmen there would be no real counter(meaning nothing with advantages) to the macemen and axemen.

 

[King Flevance]

As chose said that fact that they are not melee units themselves is their main attribute. I use them as attackers alot usually giving them first strike promotions.

 

[Mango]

Use them as defenders and give them shock promotions. They'll wipe out most macemen. The problem is the AI rarely gets stacks close enough to cities to really warrant their use. I find the only time I use them is if I just recently took a city and I need to defend it while I wait for its borders to pop. At that time you're likely to get hit by a few stray axemen, swordsmen and macemen. A well promoted crossbowman will wipe them out. Of course that's not a very common scenerio, so their use is limited.

Still, a crossbow is a 9 vs. a mace and a mace is only an 8. It also gets that first strike, so in a straight up battle, even with promotions a crossbow beats a mace pretty easily and it slaughters swords and axes.

 

[gunkulator]

The normal Crossbowmen is indeed not to usefull.
But the Chu-Ko-Nu is a miracle boy Collatarel Damage is just insane on a anormal attacking unit.

Except that Chu-Ko-Nus get the same promotions as regular archery units, i.e. city defender, not city raider. If you plan on using them offensively, you are usually stuck with combat promotions, which don't do much for a measly STR=6 unit given the era they are available. Against cities, CKNs are eaten by longbowmen. CKNs only apply 50% of their strength for collateral damage so both trebuchets and cheap catapults are better plus they can withdraw and get city raider.

 

[playshogi]

I think you want to use 'first strike' promotions with Chu-ko-nus. They get 1 free because of the protective trait (in Warlords).

 

[Rancid Sushi]

Use them in a stack of Knights to protect them from Pikemen.

 

[JujuLautre]

In my actual game, I had a weak army after invading HC and Monty was next door building an army of axes/jaguars/catapults/horse archer. I must say I was really glad to get machinery for longbowmen against him; city garrison + no melee + 50% was too much for him.

This day I wished I had the great wall

 

[gunkulator]

Use them in a stack of Knights to protect them from Pikemen.

Unless the AI also has Knights. Knights are immune to first strikes. Even old horse archers give crossbows a hard time and they're cheaper. Macemen defend better against pikemen if you can build them and are a better unit all around unit. Axemen too are good enough to fend off pikes.

Just about the only situation I would build crossbows is if I had no metals and my neighbors did.

 

[King of Town]

They are usually good in multi player because most human players will bring a stack of cr macemen to your cities, and you can eat right through them with x-bows. It's pretty funny usually, most players don't realize how easy it is to take those guys out with x-bows.

 

[magicalsushi]

Just about the only situation I would build crossbows is if I had no metals and my neighbors did.

You sure? I thought they required iron?

 

[SkippyT]

Crossbows are soo useful. They are the only ones who can beat Macemen until gunpowder.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

... Apart from Knights of course.

 

[Diamondeye]

... Apart from Knights of course.

Because knights rock this game until... cavalry.
A bit ironic aswell, you're not able to beat enemy longbowmen without a giant stack until you reach knights - who, historically speaking, got their butt kicked by... longbows!!

I tend to use crossbowmen in some of my plays. As Qin Shi Huang is one of my fav. leaders (speaking Vanilla), I tend to have CKN's instead.
They ROCK. They start with 2 firststrikes. not 2 firststrike chances, but 2 first strikes. combined with the antimelee promo and 3 drills, that's pure ownage to everybody - except knights ofc

 

[gettingfat]

Except that Chu-Ko-Nus get the same promotions as regular archery units, i.e. city defender, not city raider. If you plan on using them offensively, you are usually stuck with combat promotions, which don't do much for a measly STR=6 unit given the era they are available. Against cities, CKNs are eaten by longbowmen. CKNs only apply 50% of their strength for collateral damage so both trebuchets and cheap catapults are better plus they can withdraw and get city raider.

The apparent ineffectiveness of CKN in SP games is not because they are weak, it's simply because of all the crazy AI programming. First the AIs build mostly archers, and they have that ridiculous upgrade bonus, which allows them to upgrade all their archers into longbows in one turn. It makes it worse because they research feudalism so quick (and they share this tech among themselves very quickly, even between enemies). That's why in SP games CKN work only when I can pull off the machinery gambit (or starts with golds/gems) to start the CKN rush early enough (before the feudalism discovery). In a "fair" game (like MP), CKN should not be facing predominantly longbows.

Fortunately there is no longbow UU. I can't imagine how tough an AI can become with stacks of enhanced version of longbows.

 

[Diamondeye]

Fortunately there is no longbow UU. I can't imagine how tough an AI can become with stacks of enhanced version of longbows.

Imagine an UU named "British Longbowman" :O whatever abilities he had he would be overpowerrr!

 

[gettingfat]

Imagine an UU named "British Longbowman" :O whatever abilities he had he would be overpowerrr!

Say that "British longbowman" has improved strength (like Praet) or collateral/+first strike (like CKN) or bonus vs archery/mounted units (like Janissary), and just imagine that "British longbowmen" are built by Churchchill. Seeing his archers all turn into these Drill III/CGI monsters in one turn and throwing a dozen on me, I'll make sure he'll be my friend till 1000AD.