Who is the WORST Civ Leader? [POLL]

[Dewii]

Boudica: horrible starting techs. Poor UB. So-so UU (Guerilla 3 is actually quite powerful). One poor leader trait with great synergy with the other and the UU. Boudica's the only leader with whom I've ever run a capture-the-AI's-cities economy. I'd call her low to middle tier myself.
Saladin: poor starting techs. Poor UB. Poor UU. One strong leader trait and one near useless (Protective). Close running contender for worst.
Churchill: decent starting techs. Ok UB. Ok UU. One strong leader trait and Protective. Some synergy between the UU and the otherwise useless Protective. Bottom tier, but one of the best of the bottom. (Haven't actually ever played him.)
Charlemagne: horrible starting techs. Strong UB. Poor UU. One weak trait and Protective. Another close running contender.
Tokugawa. decent starting techs. Non-existent UB. OK to good UU. One weak leader trait and Protective. Negative synergy between leader traits until you research rifling. Positive synergy between Aggressive and the UU - but it's nothing like Shaka. Negative synergy between Protective and the UU (why build Protective crossbows when you could build aggressive samurai?)
On the whole, I think Tokugawa just edges it, though Saladin comes close. Charlemagne 3.

I'm not a fan of Sitting Bull either, nor have I ever had the wish to play with Mao.

 

[nate46]

I'd probably vote Charley due mainly to starting techs, and not much else going for him.

I think Genghis belongs on the list. Keshiks are awesome, but traits are horrible and starting techs not much to write home about.

I don't think Ghengis belongs on the list, because who would vote for him over Charley? I mean, if you think imperialistic is a bad trait, Charley is clearly the worst leader. Maybe you'd put Ghengis 2nd worst (obviously i think he's way better than that...)

But aggressive is a lot better than protective, even if both traits are pretty bad. And the mongols have a pretty good unique unit, and Ghengis' overall scheme synergizes pretty well with itself.. you get cheap barracks + unique building to pump out highly promoted version of his unique unit, and you can mass great generals. Heck, if you do it right and get a few lucky combat rolls, you can probably get a couple keshiks up to combat VI while they're still relevant.

Even if you don't have horses, he can do the catapult rush quite well also -- imp will greatly improve his rush time, cheap barracks mean higher promoted siege, and his stack defending melee units will all have a free combat 1 and can take things like medic and shock right out of the gate. imp is great for catapult rushes since you can get CR 3 cats pretty reliably with great generals.

 

[DrCron]

Saladin: poor starting techs. Poor UB. Poor UU. One strong leader trait and one near useless (Protective). Close running contender for worst.

I have to strongly disagree with this. How is a library with more culture a poor UB? The library is the one of the only 2 buildings which are always built, so a better library can never be bad. And the spiritual trait is one of the top-3 for cultural victories (his UB also helps with this).

Saladin can only be considered bad by players who completely disregard the chance of a cultural victory (and even then he'd be clearly better than Charlie and Toku).

 

[MegaLurker]

I can only think of two things that playing Toku is good for:

1) You can't have him as a neighbour
2) Samurai make for a pretty decent upgrade to rifles with all those Drill promos (don't forget the game doesn't properly calculate combat odds there, a bunch of first strikes are a lot better than indicated)

It's a bit of a stretch to base any sort of strategy around #2, but #1 is a legitimate plus

 

[6K Man]

Me. I’m the worst. I abandon games that I’m losing/not enjoying, leaving the AI civs hanging. I refuse to play starts or civs I don’t find interesting, and I don’t play by the diplomacy rules (I’ll happily attack people I’m friendly with). I’d hate playing against me if I was an AI.

Otherwise… Sitting Bull.

 

[nate46]

I’m the worst. I abandon games that I’m losing/not enjoying, leaving the AI civs hanging.

...i have this problem too. I rarely actually finish games. Either i start winning and get bored of the cleanup turns or i start losing and ragequit, or i just straight up get bored and start over again.

 

[Fippy]

I agree with DrCron, and this would probably make an interesting topic alone with Madrassas

They might be in my top 3 UBs, cos 2 strong benefits are rare on one UB.
+2 more culture on libraries is awesome.

With only 3 turns for a new cities border pop, it's even more worth considering to skip monuments and invest 30h (aka time) into a useful building instead.

They can also culture flip barb cities easier, without much extra effort.
Or counter AI culture, can also be useful.

And they give 2 extra specialist slots, esp. with Rep. that can be good as well even with Priests If you are okay with either 1 settled GPriest (they are good for that on some maps) or the GS as first person, it's a nice option.

Or for cities working on a Golden Age person, can still use Slavery and have 4 slots without extra buildings.

Let's take Sac Altars to compare, they are often ranked very high.
But they come later and on questionable buildings, and you might not really need the whipping bonus at this time.
Madrassa can help early and late.

Overall Sal's biggest problem are starting techs (ignoring protective), wheel is not bad but does not help if you need AH first.
No early progress towards BW & food techs can make starts difficult.
Also Madrassas would be even better for no mysticism starters.

 

[georgjorge]

2) Samurai make for a pretty decent upgrade to rifles with all those Drill promos (don't forget the game doesn't properly calculate combat odds there, a bunch of first strikes are a lot better than indicated)

Sadly the Samurai doesn't actually start with Drill promos (contrary to Oromos). The two first strikes it has are independent of any promos, and will disappear as soon as you upgrade it to a different unit.

 

[elmurcis]

Sadly the Samurai doesn't actually start with Drill promos (contrary to Oromos). The two first strikes it has are independent of any promos, and will disappear as soon as you upgrade it to a different unit.

Even with Samurai not keeping promotions.... Toku Drafted Rifles are propably best units in the game. Unless playing Toku of England.

 

[Fippy]

Toku Rifles get only 1 Drill promo more (for offensive use) than other agg. leaders, lol i would still prefer Cavs ~~

Not why i voted Charly over him, he has better starting techs (Myst = worst imo) and aggressive is def. better than it's reputation.
Cover warriors are reasonable defenders against barb archers, and it makes Axe rushes an option even on deity.

 

[MeowZeDung]

Ha. I just posted in the NC bullpen thread defending Toku and then I saw the poll results over here. Apparently my view is not shared He's a high variance leader that does one thing really well and everything else poorly. He's great if you are parked next to Monty/Shaka/Julius/Ragnar/Napoleon or some combination of warmongers. If you can get up to 5-7 cities peacefully, then hunker down for a defensive war or two, you will get the supreme satisfaction of upgrading your longbows to drill iv rifles later. Then draft rifles and have fun stomping the map with rifles/cannon. Much better than the Samurai route most people take with him.

All that being said, he's terrible at just about everything else. IMHO Saladin edges him out as the worst though. Madrassa's are ok if you could use the culture boost in some border cities, and SPI is great of course, but his UU is lame and PRO is. . . PRO.

At the end of the day though, I think I just can't stand that lime green color though

 

[Izuul]

Well the problem is that you still have to do something to expand and build a commerce base pre-Rifling (which is really deep into the tech tree), and Toku has practically nothing to aid in expansion or commerce.

 

[MegaLurker]

Sadly the Samurai doesn't actually start with Drill promos (contrary to Oromos). The two first strikes it has are independent of any promos, and will disappear as soon as you upgrade it to a different unit.

Toku Rifles get only 1 Drill promo more (for offensive use) than other agg. leaders, lol i would still prefer Cavs ~~

Not why i voted Charly over him, he has better starting techs (Myst = worst imo) and aggressive is def. better than it's reputation.
Cover warriors are reasonable defenders against barb archers, and it makes Axe rushes an option even on deity.

Ugh. That'll show me for not bothering to try it myself

My vote then goes to Toku for sure, with his only strength being that he can't be your annoying neighbour.

The Landsknecht is at least useful for defending your stack or captured cities during medieval warfare. Saves you some hammers, at least. 2 landsknecht are better than 1 pike and 1 mace. Samurai are irrelevant by the time the trebuchets are done.

 

[nate46]

Samurai are irrelevant by the time the trebuchets are done.

I don't think they are... 2.5 first strikes on an 8.8 str unit that can get city raider promos... they're deceptively strong.

i slapped this together pretty quickly from worldbuilder:



Of course with no city walls, this is somewhat of an ideal situation for the samurai. But still -- its an extremely powerful unit for its time period.

 

[MegaLurker]

There is a 0% chance that you'll be attacking a city with no cultural defense at that point in the game. So you bring trebuchets, at which point your macemen aren't attacking at worse odds than that anyway. They don't change your tactics, or simplify your stack requirements.

If we're talking about difficulty levels where you can get to machinery and civil service while the AI is still that vulnerable then you might as well attack much earlier with swords.

 

[nate46]

So you bring trebuchets, at which point your macemen aren't attacking at worse odds than that anyway. They don't change your tactics, or simplify your stack requirements.

hmmm...

Do you actually need trebs though? you can probably just go with samurai's + catapults. Then you don't need engineering. Although knights would be a problem, if they already have guilds...

the other advantage of samurais is that they have pretty decent odds vs grenadiers, and trebs don't. So you might be able to keep the medieval war going a bit longer.

and they can take cities without bombarding as much, or without losing as many trebuchets --- edit: nevermind, i'm wrong... I just tested this in worldbuilder and somehow trebs have higher odds vs hill longbows than samurais???? can someone explain how combat math works? lol.

Edit2: according to my worldbuilder tests -- Samurai's have better odds vs grenadiers than trebs do... but they have worse odds vs hill longbows. Is the combat % estimates even accurate?

 

[Izuul]

They're alright, but i wouldn't put them in the category of UU's that alter tactics or game strategy. The biggest benefit when paired with trebs is probably having to risk a few less trebs over the course of the war.

Cats + samurai is kind of interesting, but taking down defenses in any city with a castle would be painful. I think even accuracy cats only do -4% per turn.

 

[nate46]

getting engineering is a pain on toku anyway, since he starts with fishing.

...

You guys are right, actually. Toku is the worst leader. I'll stop arguing, LOL. I mean, who else would it be? Certainly not charlemagne, since he's IMP... and I'm playing a Boudica now and charismatic is not a useless trait like protective is...

 

[Izuul]

I think they are both mostly garbage so it comes down to Imp + hunting + Myst vs Agg + fishing + the wheel.

In that situation I'll usually take my chances with the better starting techs... Hunting and Myst are really bad.

 

[nate46]

Hunting and Myst are really bad.

starting techs really don't matter that much with imp though, since you don't actually need food to develop early... mysticism is nice on him since you can get oracle at a pretty reasonable date even without a gold mine.