Why are luxuries removed?

VirgilMing

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I'm new to this forum and forgive me if this has been thoroughly discussed before.

In Civ V, luxuries are stable and easy source of happiness, enabling you to expand your empire to like 3~4 cities very early, which have some room for growth.

But in BE they are completely removed, while the happiness system not changed that much: still -3 for each city, -0.75 for each population, occupied with a coefficient, a citiy cannot provide more than +1 per population, etc.

Generally I find it very hard to expand while maintaining positive health. Though negative health does not punish your army, this is still annoying to me. Not to mention that the patch punishes negative health much more.

Just why? I miss luxuries very much.
 
While the health system probably could use some tweaking, I don't think an ideal solution is making BE like Civ V. We already have Civ V after all.

Edit: The health system itself may not need tweaking, but rather some virtue adjustments and/or building adjustments.
 
There's even an SMAC mod for it, IIRC. You could play that game now.
 
Luxuries were actually very restrictive. If there were no more unique luxuries around, then you basically couldn't expand anymore. In BE you can always expand if you accept that you'll drop in negative health for a while, but it will pay back later if you do it correctly. Didn't play with the new patch yet, but it looks like it mainly restricts heavy over-expansion - which is something that SHOULD be restricted anyway. Can't see why normal expansion would be penalized. Yes, you'll drop into negative health, but that's to be expected - the fact that it's "annoying" doesn't make it "bad". I really prefer the BE-Health-System over the Happiness-System from Civ 5.
 
Beyond Earth is a little weird in some ways when it comes to health. Most people I think would regard villages and small towns as healthy places to live, or at least healthier than big cities - indeed people even go to them for "retreats".

However, BE treats small cities as one of the unhealthiest places that exist, barring cities with manufacturies (and/or some strategic resources). This comes in the form of a flat unhealth per city and a (potential) health per population (eventually overcoming the flat unhealth). This means small "cities" are unhealthy, while big cities are (potentially) very healthy.

I find it weird that settling a new city automatically penalises you in non-diplomatic ways; not the creation of the settler/colonist (that makes sense), but the actual settling of the city. I guess this is because Civ doesn't have a great (or at least main-stream) way of moving resources between cities.

If you could move resources between cities more effectively this would allow you to incur an opportunity cost of developing a new city - i.e., you are not using those resources on already developed cities. This would allow you to take away the automatic health, science, and culture penalties. Indeed, you could even have small cities, 'village cities', that you decide not to develop but instead could be there to function as healthy retreats for the population of your big cities (and maybe culture).

Technically we can funnel production into energy, which we can then use to buy things in small cities (but not all things - not wonders, not even all non-wonders). Problem with this is two-fold; one, the efficiency of this is poor; two, you can only buy things in bulk (no rush-buy option).

We used to be able to 'funnel' food (magical food that comes out of nowhere) into new cities, but the trade-routes only allow magical food for the big city now.

As long as there is no production/food/(energy?) opportunity cost outside of creating the settler/colonist we need to have some penalty for settling new cities - Civ uses 'Health' or 'Happiness' for that. BE went with the model of: go tall for health, go wide for trade - i.e., try to balance health against trade by expanding at a sensible rate (or at least that is what I feel was meant to be the case). However, the balance didn't exist - trade was far too powerful and health meant very little, so you just flung out as wide as you could.

With the weakening of trade (by a lot) and the importance of health increasing (by a lot) the balance may now be there, or it may not be. If it is too much in favour of going tall for health (i.e., over the course of a game you only settle a few cities; usually settling a new city when you have a big enough health surplus to make it worth it - taking into account that staying above 35 health might be quite important now) then something like luxuries may need to be added back in (although I would much prefer a new idea).
 
I'm pretty happy with the health system now. Don't worry about going negative health early on. Just don't go deep into unhealth. Over -10, the penalties are light. I think the new health system does what it's suppose to do really well; penalizes massive expansion without overly restricting mild expansion.
 
Beyond Earth is a little weird in some ways when it comes to health. Most people I think would regard villages and small towns as healthy places to live, or at least healthier than big cities - indeed people even go to them for "retreats".
Actually, considering the context, it kind of makes sense. Seeing how units generally use breathing gear, it looks like the atmosphere is unbreathable or even toxic. As a result, all cities will probably have artificial life support systems and vent emissions into the air.

If infrastructure is all that keeps you healthy and alive, it kind of makes sense that the place with the largest infrastructure and redundancy will be the healthiest place to be - they have state-of-the-art oxygen synthesisers while a new little outpost probably still has to survive on their little dinky CO2 scrubber system.
 
I'm new to this forum and forgive me if this has been thoroughly discussed before.

In Civ V, luxuries are stable and easy source of happiness, enabling you to expand your empire to like 3~4 cities very early, which have some room for growth.

But in BE they are completely removed, while the happiness system not changed that much: still -3 for each city, -0.75 for each population, occupied with a coefficient, a citiy cannot provide more than +1 per population, etc.

Generally I find it very hard to expand while maintaining positive health. Though negative health does not punish your army, this is still annoying to me. Not to mention that the patch punishes negative health much more.

Just why? I miss luxuries very much.

Basically you get health through
1. virtues
2. having big cities with lots of health buildings/biowells

You still have difficulty level health (~9 health altogether, enough to support 2-3 cities)

Until then if you want to expand you have to go negative health for a while... Basically REX=negative health
 
The mechanic is a gameplay one, and it's necessarily an abstraction. It's equally Political Stability as it is anything else. You can't be too literal about it. You might as well complain about why Rooks move in Chess.
 
I've never liked how CivBE manages health and Idon't expect that to change. It's currently a global thing mostly acquired through local capped health and virtues. There's nohing hard about it and almost nothing to think about. Feels dumbed down to me due to the lack of options to actively seek global health.

The intent is clearly to give players more freedom to expand at will but as a result I feel we get a shallower system which is too easy to manage in a game already lacking i features compared to its predecessor. While I agree that you should be able to expand mre easily especially mid-late game, I don't think this was a good solution. And I don't even need luxuries especially, it could have been something innvative.
 
I think it's supposed to be simple. Civ5 Happiness honestly isn't very complex or hard either. Was any of the mechanics ever designed for limiting expansion at all hard?
 
Civ5 happiness isn't complex that's not what I'm saying. But there are a lot more effort to actively seek happiness and more decisions invoved. It's a more interesting system.
What I don't like is that CivBE there is noting to think about with health, the sources are just few and either passively acquired (virtues) or just a couple buildings you add to the queue of buildings you make in ever city. In Civ5 there are some moments where I'm like: "where the hell am I going to get more happiness". And you will be active about looking for more (quests, trading, picking a religion). In CivBE this situation just never happens.

The man issue with expanding i Civ5 is that there never was a good incentive to exand past a certain turn number and national wonders mechanics.
 
I'm new to this forum and forgive me if this has been thoroughly discussed before.

In Civ V, luxuries are stable and easy source of happiness, enabling you to expand your empire to like 3~4 cities very early, which have some room for growth.

But in BE they are completely removed, while the happiness system not changed that much: still -3 for each city, -0.75 for each population, occupied with a coefficient, a citiy cannot provide more than +1 per population, etc.

Generally I find it very hard to expand while maintaining positive health. Though negative health does not punish your army, this is still annoying to me. Not to mention that the patch punishes negative health much more.

Just why? I miss luxuries very much.

Well, I certainly don't know the gameplay reasons behind it (if any), but I can certainly understand it from an immersion point of view. Setting up a new society in a harsh environment, there'd hardly be time or resources for luxuries.
 
Civ5 happiness isn't complex that's not what I'm saying. But there are a lot more effort to actively seek happiness and more decisions invoved. It's a more interesting system.
What I don't like is that CivBE there is noting to think about with health, the sources are just few and either passively acquired (virtues) or just a couple buildings you add to the queue of buildings you make in ever city. In Civ5 there are some moments where I'm like: "where the hell am I going to get more happiness". And you will be active about looking for more (quests, trading, picking a religion). In CivBE this situation just never happens.

The man issue with expanding i Civ5 is that there never was a good incentive to exand past a certain turn number and national wonders mechanics.

The "it's just buildings thing" is a very age-old throwback to Civ2 and SMAC when populations were building-locked at a certain score. Civ4 changed it to a soft lockout using the Health mechanic, which is what Health resembles now, transmogrified into the Happiness mechanic.

There is actually some thinking required, IMO, vis a vis Health - and that's whether you're going with a High Health strategem or a Low Health one, and how you're going to maintain and expand it. Going high positive Health now has very substantive gains, so it pays to plan how to get as much of it as is possible.
 
And how are you going to achieve that high health ? Or rather, what kind of stratagem will that require ? Probably just picking a specific virtue. Yay...
That is just a general approach to your health which will only influence your virtues. Local health is capped the same for everybody and these are the 2 sources of health, you can't proactively raise health in any other way. And that is what I criticize, this lack of proactivity in regards to that system.

Now I can understand someone liking this system better, I'm just stating my tastes here.
 
There are 3 strategies for getting high health
1. Biowell +high pop cities
2. health buildings+high pop cities
3. Prosperity+Industry tree virtues

some mix and matching is possible
 
As KrikkitTwo mentions, lowering Health-neutral point and rapidly bringing cities to that pop score is what achieves high Health - the bonuses are significant enough to reconsider expansion if you've already got high output going on. Specifically the bonuses are multiplicative - +20% Science, Production, Culture, and so on.

So you pick a Virtue path, marry it to a tech path through timing the tech and virtue acquisition rates and then manage population growth (by managing tiles and tech) to hit when the Health tech and Virtues come online. Simple, right?
 
There are 3 strategies for getting high health
1. Biowell +high pop cities
2. health buildings+high pop cities
3. Prosperity+Industry tree virtues

some mix and matching is possible

#1 and #2 do not depend on the strategy, they are only how you raise your health to normal levels and still are just easily available.

Or please show me how #1 and #2 will get you +20-+30 health without #3. You likely can't in a reasonable number of turn numbers for it to matter. And so we get back to what I'm saying. Health in CivBE is: pick virtue, spam 5turns buildings, done.

As KrikkitTwo mentions, lowering Health-neutral point and rapidly bringing cities to that pop score is what achieves high Health - the bonuses are significant enough to reconsider expansion if you've already got high output going on. Specifically the bonuses are multiplicative - +20% Science, Production, Culture, and so on.

So you pick a Virtue path, marry it to a tech path through timing the tech and virtue acquisition rates and then manage population growth (by managing tiles and tech) to hit when the Health tech and Virtues come online. Simple, right?

Yes that's what I'm saying it's too simple.
 
We can put in a request to ask the devs to work in logarithmic scaling and calculus somehow. I'm sure that'll be well-received.
 
You're confounding again a complex system with one taking some amount of effort. Nobody is asking for you to do quantum physics to manage your health. I'm simply criticizing the lack of strategy involved in the management of health, that has nothing to do with the complexity of how it's calculated.
 
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