Why Civilization 4 sucks

[TheCabal]

Well guys....

reading through many posts some guy might think that many of you are total "Only-Civ"-fanatics. Open your eyes and compare it to all the possibilities of whats making CTP2 a great, complex game (with and without mods):

- Where the [Deleted] is the unconventional warfare?? This is the most important missing stuff in Civ4. Piece times just sucks... No units, building, wonders just nothing for the unconventional warfare.
- Civ4 doesn't have many units.... Don't tell me you are ok with the amount of units, it's kept far to thin.
- Where are the non-atomic/nuclear/chemical Cruise missiles??
- No modern submarines (with places for ICBMs) except of this WWII crap?
- No way to make a voting to prevent ICBMs from getting prohibited? (like in Alpha Centauri)
- The spy is top notch "Prevent Production", "Steal Plans" and (s)he can destroy modernizations what every unit can..... the possibilities of the spy are bottom notch.
- It's not possible to do something against wonders like SDI-Defense. (Here a spy could do something about it if the spy would have more options of what to sabotage in the city, just think of CTP2)
- No CTP2-diplomat-like unit for old-style/unconventional warfare spying??
- The game speed at normal is too fast and the slowest to slow.
- No future-era.. game ends in 2050. That sucks... designers could be more creative (Hovertank, soldiers with laser guns.....)
- No possibility to destroy patrolling jets
- No stealth fighters
- This game is kept to simple
- too many other things.............. I'll keep the list edited.

Civ4 would be great if Sid Meier wouldn't ignore the concepts of games like Call to Power 1+2, Alpha Centauri (too!), and other ones.

This game is kept to thin... it's just for guys who want to play a quick, easy and simple game. The fanatics reaction regarding CTP2 is because there is only one original and something not designed by Sid Meier is just crap. I'm wondering why nobody mentions the great possibilities in CTP2 always these chattings about bugs and stuff. The list I've created are true missing stuffs and it indicates that Civ4 is more an uncompleted/thin-kept game.

Well, what are your opinions?

Greetings,
Cab

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[ChrTh]

On the one hand, all of the major reviewer sites have given this game a score over 4/5 or 90/100 and higher, and it has already won several major year-end awards.

On the other hand, there's you, who created a logon solely for the purpose of criticizing a very popular, very successful franchise whose most recent installment is considered by many of the previously-mentioned outlets to be the best version of the game.

Don't be offended, but I think I'll side with the one hand.

 

[TheCabal]

"On the one hand, all of the major reviewer sites have given this game a score over 4/5 or 90/100 and higher, and it has already won several major year-end awards."

So you are following the flow of the river right? The image of this game, the "sid meiers civ is the real civ"-thinking, the advertising-campagne (do you even know how advertising is working?), making the game testers to give away these points. They just think of that: "Is that game popular?" "Does this game have many fans?" "Where is it come from?". And sure they are playing it some hours for a quick one for the review. Read the CTP2 review on IGN. If it would be from Sid Meier they would give CTP2 an award.

I think you would need some lessons of human psychology. Where are your words on the missing stuff I mentioned?

"On the other hand, there's you, who created a logon solely for the purpose of criticizing a very popular, very successful franchise whose most recent installment is considered by many of the previously-mentioned outlets to be the best version of the game."

Criticizing a very popular game... Is it not allowed? I think you believe in every word you've been told. Damn never knew that the human are that easy to manipulate.... I think the game testers know about that fact very well that criticizing a game like Sid Meiers Civilization would be very bad for their business. They just write what you retards want to hear. I think I read a story about the relation between the distributor of a game and the game mags. But that's another story.

And the fact that you are one of Firaxis Games most fanatic supporter makes me feel that you are not able to discuss about negative aspects of that game like your post is showing.

 

[Willowmound]

So you register at a forum just to write a lenghty post on why you don't like the game. How sad. Is this how you usually spend your time?

 

[vbraun]

So you are following the flow of the river right?

So go against no river no matter what?

You want a complex game that a noob can't pick up and play. While fun for the non-noobs, its the noobs that are going to be buying the game. Its simple for them but still has an array of complexity and micromangment for the veterans.

So:
Simple but fun = Lots of profit
Complex but fun = Not nearly as much profit.

 

[TheCabal]

Whereelse to discuss things about Civilization? This is just my opinion and I want to hear your opinions on what I wrote. Is it that hard to understand?

Simple but fun = Lots of profit
Complex but fun = Not nearly as much profit

Yeah thats right (extrem complex = no profit), but if you have units like spies why not adding somthing like unconventional warfare? And the points in the list I've created wouldn't make Civ4 a complex-no-profit game.

 

[logical_psycho]

Well, I think some things can be added here and there, but I expect to see that with future expansion packs. Other than that I still think the game is damn good.

By the way, what is the use of putting ICBM's in a submarine when they can be launched from anywhere to any city in the world?

 

[The Condor]

- Where the [Deleted] is the unconventional warfare?? This is the most important missing stuff in Civ4. Piece times just sucks... No units, building, wonders just nothing for the unconventional warfare.

No clue what you mean.

- Civ4 doesn't have many units.... Don't tell me you are ok with the amount of units, it's kept far to thin.

It doesn't have a ton of units because already too many of them are never used or upgraded five turns later that it would be ridiculous.

- Where are the non-atomic/nuclear/chemical Cruise missiles??
- No modern submarines (with places for ICBMs) except of this WWII crap?

That is what mods and expansion packs are for.

- No way to make a voting to prevent ICBMs from getting prohibited? (like in Alpha Centauri)

That is kinda dumb. Just vote no on the "Anti-nuke proposal".

- The spy is top notch "Prevent Production", "Steal Plans" and (s)he can destroy modernizations what every unit can..... the possibilities of the spy are bottom notch.

That will probably be fixed soon enough either in:A: A mod when the SDK comes out. B:A future patch. C:A expansion pack.

- It's not possible to do something against wonders like SDI-Defense. (Here a spy could do something about it if the spy would have more options of what to sabotage in the city, just think of CTP2)

Why would you want to destroy a world wonder? Also, if SDI is bugging you how about instead of making 100 nukes to bomb the city (which now is useless since nukes have been nerfed) use the turns and hammers to build some tanks and airplanes instead and take the city in a conventional way.

- No CTP2-diplomat-like unit for old-style/unconventional warfare spying??

It would get annoying after a while moving them around.

- The game speed at normal is too fast and the slowest to slow.

Download the new patch. It has a "marathon" mode that is sure to fit your needs.

- No future-era.. game ends in 2050. That sucks... designers could be more creative (Hovertank, soldiers with laser guns.....)

A victory condition is usually triggered before the 2050 mark anyway so it they would just be a waste of time.

- No possibility to destroy patrolling jets

So what, just build a few SAM's to accompany your stacks of doom to cut down on being bombed. Also, it does happen but very, very rarely.

- No stealth fighters

Those things sucked. The jet fighters are way better.

- This game is kept to simple

Sadly, I have to agree with you and it does lack a little emotion.

Civ4 would be great if Sid Meier wouldn't ignore the concepts of games like Call to Power 1+2, Alpha Centauri (too!), and other ones.

I think his way of thinking (generally) is fine.

This game is kept to thin... it's just for guys who want to play a quick, easy and simple game.

Well, that only was one of their main plans for the game!

Also, hi Willowmound.

 

[TheCabal]

"By the way, what is the use of putting ICBM's in a submarine when they can be launched from anywhere to any city in the world?"

Sorry! Was thinking in CTP2-style...


Hey Condor,

thanks for reply (and for mentioning the new marathon gaming speed!!)

What I mean by unconventional warfare:

In my eyes there are just PIECE or WAR times. What I extremly miss here are units for something like a secret war without military units. In CTP2 you could build bureaucrats. With these you could open an office in a city of another nation and drain money from them. These offices could be only shutdown by an enemy unit: a lawyer. Stuff like especially espionage, creating resistance in other nations cities or stuff like that. These are just ideas for it. Just remeber Alpha Centauris spy probes. In every action you could blame another nation for your action and do many things. Wondering why Sid Meier forgot about this. Maybe this will be included in some expansion.

 

[MusicLaunch]

Your list has lots of good criticism that may be added in a mod for Civ 4. But I think that Civ 4 is fine the way it is; all your ideas compare it with other games (ie: CTP2, Alpha Centauri) and ideas about future-age units/technologies. If Civ 4 DID include all the aspects that you mentioned in those games, then it would be VERY complex and VERY similar to those games - what would be the point of playing Civ when you can play the other games? Besides, Civ is about remaking history on Earth, not blasting aliens onboard a Mothership.

Another point you said is "This game is kept to simple". How simple IS Civ? What CAN do you each turn? There are endless possibilities each turn: trade. war. expand. think. It's all about strategies from the head. Civ is as complex as a human brain; you can't look at Civ and say, "ya, build archer. build settler. build archer." (Well, you can, but it makes the game so much more boring, as no THINKING is involved) If there were MORE things to think about in Civ, I think I would have to quit; it would feel like work. (remember micromanaging in Civ3?)

PS: If you say bad things about Civ on a Civ-Fanatics site, expect to be flamed and pushed around <.< ... even though there is nothing wrong with criticising Civ.

 

[Teshuvah]

Whereelse to discuss things about Civilization? This is just my opinion and I want to hear your opinions on what I wrote. Is it that hard to understand?

My opinion on what you wrote is as follows:

 

[vbraun]

Your only real gripe is the lack of complexity. The complexity in Civ4 is not found in the actual details (such as number of units) but how many different stratagies you can persue.

 

[Psyringe]

Well TheCabal....

reading through your posts some guy might think that you are total "Only-Against-Civ"-basher. Open your eyes and see all the possibilities of whats making Civ4 a great, complex game (with and without mods):

- a basic game design that has proven to stand the test of time
- added some concepts from other games like SMAC (global politics, civics)
- added new innovative concepts like religion or great persons
- deleted the utterly unrealistic "attack/defense" rating of units and replaced it by a new, flexible promotion system which lets you customize your units for specific purposes
- changed the tech tree to provide more alternate routes in order to enable a more diversified game
- finally put an end to ICS because of a new maintenance system
- added an AI that poses a real challenge without cheating like mad

Regarding your post, frankly, I think it's too thin. Mostly because you are repeating yourself. And repeating yourself. And I think it's too thin. And you're repeating yourself.

Joking aside, I think you've made it quite clear that you're solely looking for negative points, so, since you've already made up your mind, any discussion is probably moot. It's a pity, because you're missing out on a truly great game. But if you don't like it, or don't want to see what it is, of course no one forces you to play it.

 

[The Condor]

Hey Condor,

thanks for reply (and for mentioning the new marathon gaming speed!!)

Your welcome.

In my eyes there are just PIECE or WAR times.

Well, you are right. Like 95% of the units of the game are used in war whether you are defending or attacking.

What I extremly miss here are units for something like a secret war without military unitsIn CTP2 you could build bureaucrats. With these you could open an office in a city of another nation and drain money from them. These offices could be only shutdown by an enemy unit: a lawyer. Stuff like especially espionage, creating resistance in other nations cities or stuff like that. These are just ideas for it.

It may not be exactly what you want but religions are in a way secret wars. Basically, you first found a religion and then try to spread it around as much as possible (with missionaries) so when you get the shrine of the religion (with a Great Prophet) you get a coin a turn per city. Also, if you also get "The Spiral Minaret" you get an additional coin per every building in every city that is for the religion you have both the shrine and the minaret for! Also to add to the fun there is a mod out there (I think it is called "The Inquisitor mod") that allows you to remove religions (with a unit called the "Inquisitor") so you have to keep putting them in an enemy civ (if they don't want that religion) to get their money.

In addition, two good mods out there that add more units are:1) The "Lost Units" mod (also there is a "Lost Wonders" mod if you miss some of those too). Or 2) Exavier's composite mod that also combines other mods for an all together better experience (currently located in my sig). It comes in two version (one for the people that still have v1.09 of the patch and another for people with v1.52 of the patch).

I hope this helps.

 

[Stinson]

reading through many posts some guy might think that many of you are total "Only-Civ"-fanatics. Open your eyes and compare it to all the possibilities of whats making CTP2 a great, complex game (with and without mods):

You do know this is a forum strictly for the Civilization series, right? Did you really expect to come here and find a bunch of people who aren't "civ only" fans? When you talk to people on the internet, are you suprised to find out that everyone you meet is someone who knows how to use the internet?

I'm not trying to shoot you down and make you look bad, but you sound rather silly coming here and being suprised that most everyone here, a Civ forum, are hardcore Civ fans.

 

[xGBox]

Civilization IV is a game based on history based on Sid Meier. It loosely follows history up to the point of today and to the near future. Anything up to the space race is disregarded and is too far in the future to tell (hence, Future Tech. Stuff like The Internet world wonder was not put in-game until recently). Hovertanks and soldiers with laser guns will not be used until reality starts using hovertanks and soliders with laser guns for their armies (For now, this is something left for Alpha Centauri).

There are hundreds, if not thousands of different kinds of soldiers throughout history and time. Warriors, archers, infantry, and others were picked because they were the most common, most popular, or it was linked with its respective civilization. We do not need a billion different units with similar attributes, but a simplified setup that differs from other soldiers of its era will work just as well.

You also have to understand that this is not CTP2. That was made by other people with a different philosophy on how to make a game based on history. The same can be said for Rise to Power. They might follow similar stuff such as civilizations, micromanagement, and the like, but there has to be things that set it apart from other strategy games. Otherwise, it would be called plagarism.

 

[The Condor]

@Stinson Actually, this site is not just dedicated to civ (where as you could well argue this forum is) but to a few other games like it (including Rise of Nations and CTP). Just go to the main forum, scroll down, find "Forum Games" and in that forum there is a discussion room for and only for CTP.

 

[TheCabal]

Well if that's your opinion Teshuvah you should go to your next zoo and lock urself in a monkey cave.


"Regarding your post, frankly, I think it's too thin. Mostly because you are repeating yourself. And repeating yourself. And I think it's too thin. And you're repeating yourself."

That's because nobody talks what this thread is about (except of THE CONDOR). It's like reading the posts from a bunch of propaganda-clerks talking only about the pro's of the game (but this thread is about the cons). Dunno whether I'm posting with one directional-minded retards or with just normal dudes.

Will check the mods out THE CONDOR. Hope that my game experience (Civ4) will change after trying out the mods.

@xGBOx

I know that they picked the most important units. But if they include a WWII and a modern tank (like WWII fighter/modern fighter) where is the modern submarine (which could stay undetectable from these damn destroyers)? Or as I said about the ICBMs with no ABC-warheads.

@Stinson

Well...

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[opticaljim]

Cabal, I've been one of the most outspoken critics of the game bugs and the company's reaction to it. I had hoped that my criticism would come off as constructive.

I really don't know what you're hoping for, unless it's just your 15 minutes of fame on this forum.

Anyway, your 15 minutes is up and that sound you hear is your mother telling you to get out of your basement bedroom and take out the trash.

 

[linjon1]

"whether I'm posting with one directional-minded retards "

so you come to a pro civ forum, slam civ4, and when hardly anyone agrees with you ( WHAT A SURPRISE), you label them.

sure, whatever...