Why make a tax collector?
- Thread starter Marzipan
- Start date
spycatcher34
Emperor
They will make you more money. They give a certain amount extra to that citys gold that it generates.
Ghengis Brom
Chieftain
I wonder if they have the same effect on happiness as they did in Civ II?
Do tax collectors always produce 1 additional gold per turn? I noticed that the one tax collector I have is giving one gold, but will a very productive/large city do more?
Also, I can't see the exact effect of making citizens scientists. Does this just reduce your research by 1 beaker per turn, or what?
Thanks
Also, I can't see the exact effect of making citizens scientists. Does this just reduce your research by 1 beaker per turn, or what?
Thanks
FullofHoles
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2001
- Messages
- 151
There are three (and only three) situations in which it makes sense to make taxmen or scientists:
A: The population of the city is so large that all available squares are already being harvested by citizens. In cities this large, it is often a good idea to revert some of your irrigation to mines and just allow the population to fall back to the level that IS just able to harvest all available squares.
B. Corruption is so bad that any extra citizens harvesting surrounding squares will not add to the effective shield production or tax production of the city. Specialists are an economical way to get some use out of cities so distant from your capital that they can produce nothing useful.
C. Sometimes you are in a position where one more entertainer is not doing you any good, but one extra citizen will put your city in resistance. You may as well turn that problem-citizen into a specialist.
Specialists are inefficient, but sometimes inefficiency is the best that you can ask for.
A: The population of the city is so large that all available squares are already being harvested by citizens. In cities this large, it is often a good idea to revert some of your irrigation to mines and just allow the population to fall back to the level that IS just able to harvest all available squares.
B. Corruption is so bad that any extra citizens harvesting surrounding squares will not add to the effective shield production or tax production of the city. Specialists are an economical way to get some use out of cities so distant from your capital that they can produce nothing useful.
C. Sometimes you are in a position where one more entertainer is not doing you any good, but one extra citizen will put your city in resistance. You may as well turn that problem-citizen into a specialist.
Specialists are inefficient, but sometimes inefficiency is the best that you can ask for.
I was fooling with the taxmen, scientists, and entertainers last night to see what the effect was. I can see the advantage of entertainers, but the taxman and scientist concepts seem like they were a bit muddled in the design, or I'm missing something.
Here is a quicky description of what they do, gold-accounting-wise:
When you create an entertainer, you lose the shields, food and gold he or she was producing, but make another citizen happy.
When you create a scientist, you lose the shields, food and gold from the square he or she was working, but 1 gold is added to the science budget of the city (best seen on the domestic advisor screen).
When you create a taxman, you lose the shields, food and gold from the square he or she was working, but 1 gold is added to the treasury of the city (best seen on the domestic advisor screen).
Edit: woops had the taxman and scientist effects backward, doh!
With the taxman and scientist, I see no net gain, and actually a net loss in the categories they apply to. If a scientist is working a square producing 2 shields, 2 food, and 2 gold, your net loss is 2 shields, 2 food, and 1 gold (from the treasury). I get more of everything, without a taxman or scientist, even the same or more tax or science.
The reason I say these concepts seem muddled is that you would expect from common sense that a taxman in a large, productive city would collect more tax than a taxman in a small town, and a scientist working in a city with a university and/or library would be more effective than one working out in the sticks, but this is not the case.
The only benefit of a taxman or a scientist seems to come if you have citizens who are not working any squares (can you have citizens who aren't working squares?).
Edit: WAIT A MINUTE! I think I got it, I gotta try this out. Maybe the short way of putting this is "taxmen and scientists are what you do with your hordes of workers when there is nothing else for them to work on." If I have a city at a certain size that has all its squares being worked, and I have excess workers, maybe I can tell one of the city occupants to become a scientist (or taxman or entertainer), leaving one square unworked. Then I tell a worker to join the city, who then works the square the specialist used to be on. If it works, this would yield a net gain of 1 gold in the treasury or science budget (or a happy face), at a cost of a worker who would have been idle anyway.
Here is a quicky description of what they do, gold-accounting-wise:
When you create an entertainer, you lose the shields, food and gold he or she was producing, but make another citizen happy.
When you create a scientist, you lose the shields, food and gold from the square he or she was working, but 1 gold is added to the science budget of the city (best seen on the domestic advisor screen).
When you create a taxman, you lose the shields, food and gold from the square he or she was working, but 1 gold is added to the treasury of the city (best seen on the domestic advisor screen).
Edit: woops had the taxman and scientist effects backward, doh!
With the taxman and scientist, I see no net gain, and actually a net loss in the categories they apply to. If a scientist is working a square producing 2 shields, 2 food, and 2 gold, your net loss is 2 shields, 2 food, and 1 gold (from the treasury). I get more of everything, without a taxman or scientist, even the same or more tax or science.
The reason I say these concepts seem muddled is that you would expect from common sense that a taxman in a large, productive city would collect more tax than a taxman in a small town, and a scientist working in a city with a university and/or library would be more effective than one working out in the sticks, but this is not the case.
The only benefit of a taxman or a scientist seems to come if you have citizens who are not working any squares (can you have citizens who aren't working squares?).
Edit: WAIT A MINUTE! I think I got it, I gotta try this out. Maybe the short way of putting this is "taxmen and scientists are what you do with your hordes of workers when there is nothing else for them to work on." If I have a city at a certain size that has all its squares being worked, and I have excess workers, maybe I can tell one of the city occupants to become a scientist (or taxman or entertainer), leaving one square unworked. Then I tell a worker to join the city, who then works the square the specialist used to be on. If it works, this would yield a net gain of 1 gold in the treasury or science budget (or a happy face), at a cost of a worker who would have been idle anyway.
Sodak
Paha Sapa Papa
I have one of those 99% corruption cities - would the gold/beaker get added after corruption is calculated? That would be a good. Granted, you still get no shields, but the town would not be completely worthless.
Magnus
Diplocat
I believe every taxman creates one gold. Period.
FullofHoles
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2001
- Messages
- 151
When I capture distant towns that I cannot afford to raze, (towns containing wonders of the world, for example), I set ALL of the citizens to Taxmen. This allows me to get some benefit while at the same time starving the town down into a size that is less likely to revolt.
Aha! Now I see the purpose these serve, it's what your excess people do in a city where all the squares are being worked, but there is enough food to support more people than there are squares to be worked. If all the squares are being worked, you can reassign a citizen to become a scientist, then have an excess worker join the city and take over the square.
It seems to me though that creating taxmen or scientists in cities with lots of corruption doesn't help anything, since when you take a worker off of a square, his production and commerce are taken away from the waste / production, corruption / commerce categories in the same proportion that waste and corruption occur in.
I think I found this a bit confusing
because the documentation is a bit muddled in how it refers to "commerce" "gold" and "tax rate." 
It refers to the bars where you adjust the proportions that go to the science budget and treasury as the "tax rate," but this is not really the correct term. Actually, adjusting the happy face slider changes the "consumption level" This is an important distinction, since what is left over after consumption is subtracted is not just tax revenue. What goes into the science budget and treasure chest would correspond in the real world to both tax revenue and the capital expenses, current expenses, and research and development in industry. :enlighten:
Another way of putting it is that the "commerce" number is a city's contribution to GDP, the happy face slider sets the consumption level, and the beaker slider sets the level of research and development spending of both the government and industry. From that the country's trade balance is added or subtracted, government and industry current expenses are subtracted, and what's left over represents the government's, industry's, and citizen's capital and current account surplus. So the tax rate really doesn't appear anywhere directly, and can't really be calculated from the numbers available, since the player makes spending decisions for both government and industry. I suppose you could do your own accounting though and determine how much of your spending is government spending (tax revenue plus government borrowing) and how much is industry spending. Then compute the tax rate by taking tax revenue divided by tax revenue plus consumption spending.
So to further clarify, the gold from "taxmen" is not really "tax", it is represents net fees collected, and the taxmen should really be thought of as "government workers" providing services that produce income for the government.
It seems to me though that creating taxmen or scientists in cities with lots of corruption doesn't help anything, since when you take a worker off of a square, his production and commerce are taken away from the waste / production, corruption / commerce categories in the same proportion that waste and corruption occur in.
I think I found this a bit confusing
because the documentation is a bit muddled in how it refers to "commerce" "gold" and "tax rate." It refers to the bars where you adjust the proportions that go to the science budget and treasury as the "tax rate," but this is not really the correct term. Actually, adjusting the happy face slider changes the "consumption level" This is an important distinction, since what is left over after consumption is subtracted is not just tax revenue. What goes into the science budget and treasure chest would correspond in the real world to both tax revenue and the capital expenses, current expenses, and research and development in industry. :enlighten:Another way of putting it is that the "commerce" number is a city's contribution to GDP, the happy face slider sets the consumption level, and the beaker slider sets the level of research and development spending of both the government and industry. From that the country's trade balance is added or subtracted, government and industry current expenses are subtracted, and what's left over represents the government's, industry's, and citizen's capital and current account surplus. So the tax rate really doesn't appear anywhere directly, and can't really be calculated from the numbers available, since the player makes spending decisions for both government and industry. I suppose you could do your own accounting though and determine how much of your spending is government spending (tax revenue plus government borrowing) and how much is industry spending. Then compute the tax rate by taking tax revenue divided by tax revenue plus consumption spending.
So to further clarify, the gold from "taxmen" is not really "tax", it is represents net fees collected, and the taxmen should really be thought of as "government workers" providing services that produce income for the government.
FullofHoles
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2001
- Messages
- 151
Marzipan,
I think that you are misunderstanding Magnus's statement. Taxmen and scientists are immune to corruption. The ONE beaker or coin that each generates is unaffected by corruption AND is unaffected by improvements such as marketplaces.
This is in reference to your statement:
It seems to me though that creating taxmen or scientists in cities with lots of corruption doesn't help anything, since when you take a worker off of a square, his production and commerce are taken away from the waste / production, corruption / commerce categories in the same proportion that waste and corruption occur in.
I think that you are misunderstanding Magnus's statement. Taxmen and scientists are immune to corruption. The ONE beaker or coin that each generates is unaffected by corruption AND is unaffected by improvements such as marketplaces.
This is in reference to your statement:
It seems to me though that creating taxmen or scientists in cities with lots of corruption doesn't help anything, since when you take a worker off of a square, his production and commerce are taken away from the waste / production, corruption / commerce categories in the same proportion that waste and corruption occur in.
Sodak
Paha Sapa Papa
Only 1 gold per taxman? It seems more like 3g/turn.
Last night I turned my -6g/turn economy into a +28g/turn economy by making a dozen taxmen. They were in cities of different sizes, if that makes a difference.
The tax is independent of corruption. In a city with total corruption - only 1 beaker and 1 shield, regardless of what the six citizens do, I maxed food production and made the rest of the citizens taxmen. Instead of being a total waste, the city now produces a small pile of gold each turn. Soon they can buy their own temple, the greedy crooks.
It seems more like 3g/turn.Last night I turned my -6g/turn economy into a +28g/turn economy by making a dozen taxmen. They were in cities of different sizes, if that makes a difference.
The tax is independent of corruption. In a city with total corruption - only 1 beaker and 1 shield, regardless of what the six citizens do, I maxed food production and made the rest of the citizens taxmen. Instead of being a total waste, the city now produces a small pile of gold each turn. Soon they can buy their own temple, the greedy crooks.
Yes, I understand that the 1 gold per turn for scientists and taxmen is immune to corruption. If you don't have anyone working the squares, there's no way you will have enough food though. I dunno, maybe there are some situations with high corruption where you can eak out a better situation by using taxmen and/or scientists.
After reflecting on these specialists, the entertainer and scientist sound solid, but the taxman really is just a generalized worker providing "professional" services vs. labor.
After reflecting on these specialists, the entertainer and scientist sound solid, but the taxman really is just a generalized worker providing "professional" services vs. labor.
Nero Would
Chieftain
Scientists do add one gold per turn to your research. Unfortunately, their contribition is not documented anywhere, it simply reduces the number of turns for the next advance (assuming their are enough scientists to do so). You can test this by setting your science percentage to zero. If you have no scientists, the domestic advisor screen will show that you will never complete the current advance. Create at least one scientist and the domestic advisor will show that the next advance will be in 40 turns.
slothman
Emperor
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2001
- Messages
- 1,223
I used the editor and made my taxmen ans scientists collect 4 gold or beakers, respectivly, each. That compensates for the lack of commerce they produce.
BTW, did you know that you can make your regular laborors produce sci,gold,lux. Normally they don't but you can make them do so. I tried it but 1 combo wouldn't let me move any of my laborors to different squares on my city screen.
BTW, did you know that you can make your regular laborors produce sci,gold,lux. Normally they don't but you can make them do so. I tried it but 1 combo wouldn't let me move any of my laborors to different squares on my city screen.
Well, that is good to know. It gives me something to think about with the around 10 cities that are worthless due to corruption. I'm researching things in 5-6 turns now, and using somewhere around 400-600 beakers per turn though. So It would take a hell of a lot of scientists to make any real difference. Do you know if they contribute 1 beaker, or if it is somehow relative to the era you are in? We all reasearch faster in modern times after all...
Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
Good topic!
I've always wondered what to do when my workers run out of things to do (after railroads), and I have a bunch of cities above size 30. Should I keep the cities large (with all the tax collectors/scientists) or should I go and micromanage the workers to mine instead of irrigate tiles until the city sizes are reduced to 21 (or as small as it can without going below 21). Therefore maximizing production and minimizing population pollution. I can build everything faster, and when they run out of things to build I can build WEALTH, and would have more shields being converted into cash.
Or maybe this won't work since it takes 8 or 10 shields (depending which version you have) to make one gold
Anyone know by what degree population adds pollution? Like is it 1 pollution icon for each 5 or 10 citizens you go over 12?
I've always wondered what to do when my workers run out of things to do (after railroads), and I have a bunch of cities above size 30. Should I keep the cities large (with all the tax collectors/scientists) or should I go and micromanage the workers to mine instead of irrigate tiles until the city sizes are reduced to 21 (or as small as it can without going below 21). Therefore maximizing production and minimizing population pollution. I can build everything faster, and when they run out of things to build I can build WEALTH, and would have more shields being converted into cash.
Or maybe this won't work since it takes 8 or 10 shields (depending which version you have) to make one gold
Anyone know by what degree population adds pollution? Like is it 1 pollution icon for each 5 or 10 citizens you go over 12?
scorch
Legalize Pot
they ****ed up the specialists on civ3, on civ2 they would make a good difference, they would earn a nice little bonus, but on civ3 they do **** all., ie. there is no point in taking a labourer away, to make a scientist, because the commerce taken away is greater than the outcome the scientist makes.
