Wonder building 1660

[Kev]

OK, we have NINE caravans at the ready. We will need eight to complete Newton's, but there's a surprising new twist to our efforts: Women's Suffrage.

I happen to like this wonder as I tend to stay in a Democracy for most of the game. This plus the UN can give us the ability to run a war in Democracy very effectively.

Our only real threat on this is the Mongols. They changed production from another wonder to Suffrage. We have no idea how far along they are.

So we have some options:
1. Build Newton's now and work very hard to incrementally rush some caravans for Suffrage and build it right after discovering (or stealing) industrialization.
2. Take our chances once again and save the caravans for Suffrage. Build it the very moment we have indust.
3. Hold the caravans and wait. If there's the message that a civ is close to finishing Suffrage, build it outright. Otherwise wait until we have enough for BOTH wonders and build them when we do.

Personally, we've been lucky so far with Newtons and I'd like to go ahead and build it now. Then, keeping a slider rate that makes us some good cash, rush the 10 or so caravans we'll need to complete Suffrage.

Any other thoughts?

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

I would very much like to give a run for WS.

Could we rush the Univ in HDP and then start WS there? That way if we don't make it to WS, we can just switch it to Newtons.

The only downside to that is that WS is 600 shields, while Newtons is only 400. So, we could end up wasting anything over the 400 if we don't get WS.

 

[duke o' york]

As far as I'm concerned then I think that we should be prepared to accept that waste as a bit of luck that has not gone in our favour. So far we have had the rub of the green on the Potopolia golf course and we shouldn't be too annoyed if we don't get lucky once again. If we do then we probably deserve a lot of bad luck at some point but maybe we can ride our good fortune . It is not necessarily a waste yet but as potential we ought to just accept it and not let this possibility stand in our way. I'd like Electricity soon as this would cut off the Chinese in their Great Library tech-grabbing instant-trading game. I realise that this makes the Mongols more powerful tech-wise and that this ultimately benefits us but we want to keep our enemies in the dark with regard to wonder techs and techs for the good units. At about this stage of the game the tech research does tend to slow down for AI civs but I'm surprised to see the Suffrage so far advanced.

 

[Kev]

Well, I think that the Mongol's discovery of Darwin's is what put them into the industrial age. I can only think that some trading/Library stuff helped the others. I think that we have several that the AI doesn't at this point, so we're about even with civs like the Chinese, Mongols and Romans. After we "lift" a few techs and get moving with some trade in our democracy, we'll dust 'em.

As for wonders - still need some advice on which to go for. We have Newton's, Suffrage, and don't forget the Statue of Liberty available. We have 9 caravans with some more that are rushable. I think that there's going to be some cascade by the time all's said and done. I think that we'll be able to get two, however, so we may have to decide which one to NOT go for.

 

[duke o' york]

Don't go for the Statue! The other two are non-replicatable wonders, whereas with the Oedo years and a few beakers we can soon have all the governments we like and a no-anarchy transition. I'd be surprised if the other civs have Theory of Gravity but if one does then the Chinese will have it too. That is the most vital wonder for us though. Once we can team that with the other 2 science wonders then we will be able to research to the point where our superior weapons will wipe out enemy cities and grab their wonders.

 

[Dell19]

Originally posted by Kev
Personally, we've been lucky so far with Newtons and I'd like to go ahead and build it now. Then, keeping a slider rate that makes us some good cash, rush the 10 or so caravans we'll need to complete Suffrage.

I like this idea. The caravans should cost less to rush build than rushing the whole wonder. Also we have to hope that the Mongols are nowhere near completing WS.

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

Definately skip SOL.

I say we start WS, if we see that someone started Newtons, switch to that. As soon as WS is done, we build Newtons.

I agree with duke, that we need to nip the chinese tech advances in the bud. Plus, everytime they get a tech from the GL, I'm sure they trade it with everyone else. I'm going to move Electricy up on the tech chart to kill the GL.

 

[Mr Spice]

I would like to build Newtons right away, it is after all the most important wonder of those three. I also agree on making a run for Womens Suffrage, as it would save us from building police stations later on. So, get Newtons ASAP, then concentrate all efforts at WS. With the income we have now, rushing nine caravans in a short time should be no problem.

 

[Leowind]

I think Newton's is too important to take the chance on losing it. We could conceivably get a message the Mongols are about to complete WS, rush build to beat them, and have them switch to Newtons and complete it. WS is an important wonder and I would dearly love to have it, but Newton's is more important, and the sooner we have it the sooner our tech lead will begin to grow. I say build Newtons' ASAP and rush buy some caravans to go for WS

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

Going for Newtons first is fine by me. I don't think the AI usually goes for ToG until later, so I think it would be safe. But, I figure we will get both and Newtons is more of a 'must have' wonder than WS.

 

[duke o' york]

I apologise for my folly in saying that WS is a non-replicable wonder. Of course you can build a police station in every city. Duhh!
Newton's would be my preference, but I'd like to know which techs everyone else has. Experience tells me that the AI don't bother with ToG usually but it's going to be awful if this is the exception to the rule. We definitely need this wonder!!

 

[Kev]

I feel fairly confident that we can get both Newton's and Suffrage. It will likely have to mean giving up the Statue of Liberty. Of course, we could go for the SOL and Suffrage counting on the AI to skip TOG for a while, but I don't want to press my luck. The only thing we'd really gain by the SOL is the ability to revolt at any time (why leave democracy now anyway) and the ability to go fundy whenever we wish (why leave democracy now anyway).

My thoughts are that since the Mongols had a head start, they will likely be the ones to complete the Statue. I also feel relatively confident that the Mongols will be one of the first few civs we go after when we have a proper buildup (driving them down to a single city that we can feed techs to) - so this could mean taking the Statue fairly quickly in any case.

We also should beware of enemy dips stealing something like TOG from us. That would be hideous as it could cause an immediate switch and cause some problems.

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

Let's build Newtons first. It is the only one of the wonders that has to be city specific. The others we can always capture if we care about that much. Capturing Newtons won't do us any good since it won't be in our SSC.

 

[duke o' york]

We should definitely go for Newton's in THDP as I have been rattling on for the whole game about how important the SSC will be to us and I'm going to look really dumb if I say "build WS" and someone beats us to Newton's. And that's not a reason to ignore Newton's by the way!

 

[Ren]

Ok, here are my views, in order of what in my opinion is important:

• Get Newton's in THDP!
• Start Newton's in other cit(y/ies) so we can switch to something else later
• We need SOL! I say that is more important than WS, because with Communism units out of cities don't cause unhappiness
• Maybe we could go hunting for the city building WS? That could save a bit of hassle
• Prince rules because you never have these problems

 

[Kev]

Truth be told, Ren, Communism as a technology is not far off right now. I try to go for it relatively quickly. Granted, it can hurt the Chapel, but it allows for the UN which I deem a very high-priority wonder - mainly because I like to stay with Democracy for the whole game. For the same reason, I like Suffrage over Statue - less unhappiness with a moving military. With this in mind, the only real advantages that the Statue bring to the table right now is the ability to change governments at any time (rather than waiting for an Oedo Year) and the ability to go to Fundamentalism (which we would not be able to study for a good while longer).

We'll have to have a discussion about Communism vs. Democracy when we have the opportunity. Personally, I've held many campaigns in a democracy and find it a better option. With great cash, rails, and a continued science advantage, I can keep a small defending army of superior units rather than trying to keep 3 units in every city for martial law.

Once we have the choice, duke as the MOI will undoubtedly visit that choice. For now, when I play the turns tonight, I'll go with what the majority is proposing: get Newton's NOW and then move like heck toward Suffrage.