Wonders for Civ Leader Pass / Civ 7

Historically it doesn't make a lot of sense, but in a gameplay sense you want a very early wonder to justify risk-versus-reward--and Stonehenge is the earliest wonder in the game. (Personally I think Civ7 needs a new category of Prehistoric Manmade Wonders that are already on the map like Natural Wonders to represent things like Stonehenge, Tara, Newgrange, Göbekli Tepe, and so forth. Visually, Paititi is already doing something like that.)

Ask, and Ye shall receive:

Very Early "Wonders" (pre-2400 BCE):

Gobekli Tepe - Anatolia, 9500 BCE
Mustatils - Arabia, 5300 BCE
Carnac stone lines - Brittany, Wales, England, Ireland, 4000 BCE
Carrowmore stone circles/tombs, Ireland, 3700 BCE
Sechin Bajo (modern name) - Peru, 3700 BCE
Maumbury Rings, England, 3600 BCE
Tarxian Complex (Gigantija Temples) - Malta, 3600 BCE
White Temple (Anu Ziuggurat) - Uruk, 3500 BCE
Hunebedden - dolmens, Netherlands, 3400 BCE
Newgrange (Si an Bhru) - County Meath, Ireland - 3200 BCE
Rujm-l-Hiri ("Tumulus of the Wild Cat") - Palestine, 3000 BCE
Dolmans of the North Caucasus - 3000 BCE
Avebury - stone circle and obelisk, England, 2850 BCE
Durrington Walls - England, 2500 BCE
Silbury Hill - England, 2500 BCE
 
I would put in Huaca del Sol as it was the largest man made structure in the Americas until the Spanish destroyed most of it treasure hunting. Gate of the Sun could be used as well as a very early wonder.
Not quite. The Cholula pyramid (Mesoamerica) at 4.45 million cubic meters is the largest pyramid in the world (almost twice the volume of the "Great Pyramid" of Cheops). Now considered to be a temple to Quetzacoatl probably at least started by Teotihuacan around the 3rd century BCE but added to at least 6 times later until the 12th century CE.
 
What we have now is just a half to two thirds of what Huaca del Sol was due to the Spanish and erosion.
 
About Tower of Babylon. what actually it was if biblical tower cited that King Nimrod ordered his people to build a wide and tall tower so the King could 'challenge God'. ?
The Tower of Babel is already in the game, as most scholars are in agreement that the story was inspired by Etemenanki.
 
What we have now is just a half to two thirds of what Huaca del Sol was due to the Spanish and erosion.
Unfortunately true of both sites mentioned, but the archeological estimates I've seen put Cholula as having the larger base: the problem is that we don't know precisely how tall either one was originally. I'd take either one, really, because it's too easy to wind up with too heavy a representation of Wonders from classical Europe, Middle East, and Asia and poor representation from the rest of the world.
 
How I would like wonders to work in Civ 7:

1- Wonders should be really wonderful. I mean, all of them should grant bonuses that are really worth building. End up with very specific bonuses.

2- They should have less rigid placement rules. Some of them can occupy a whole tile (Pyramids and Petra, for example), some built inside the city (Great Library) and some can appear on the map without occupying a tile (Great Wall).

3- They that occupy tiles can be looted, and if continuously looted, they will be destroyed.

4- Create more conditions to claim wonders, besides only being available in specific techs or civics. It would be cool to have quests to unlock some wonders. Some wonders may be available at certain events, such as Maracanã may only be available to those who win the right to host a huge modern sporting event.

5- I think they should be a little cheaper to build. I don't like the idea of infinite turns to build a wonder.
 
2- They should have less rigid placement rules. Some of them can occupy a whole tile (Pyramids and Petra, for example), some built inside the city (Great Library) and some can appear on the map without occupying a tile (Great Wall).
I think all of them should be on the map. It makes wonders feel more wondrous. Also, I'd be perfectly happy not to see the Great Wall in a Civ game. China has better wonders (Temple of Heaven, Purple Cloud Monastery, etc.) and better options for unique infrastructure. It served no real practical purpose (which may, ironically, be its best argument for being a wonder), and it became more iconic in modern times than in earlier points of Chinese history (many travel writers don't even mention it). Also the meme that you can see it from space is entirely untrue without hefty qualification--qualifications at which point many other manmade objects are also visible.
 
Of course the Great Wall served a practical purpose.

You're making a bold claim that multiple dynasties stretching from the Ming all the way back to the Qin almost 3 millennia of multiple dynasties, over thousands of miles, at the cost of vast sums of blood and treasure, undertook a useless construction project for no benefit, and kept doing it even though multiple dynasties and generations is enough of a timescale to determine its value. Hell, even the Jin, a conquest dynasty of Jurchen "eastern barbarians" from beyond the wall saw its enormous value, and invested heavily into its lengthening and improvement. Why would barbarians take up construction of the Great Wall if they didn't think it worked?

Even into the age of gunpowder weapons, the wall was such an imposing logistical barrier that the Manchu Qing were not able to sustain more than minor raiding parties south of the wall; their conquest of the Ming happened because of mass riots and revolts within China proper and a Ming general stationed at the Shanhai Pass letting them in. There are countless examples of the wall posing a serious hurdle to China's would-be conquerors.
 
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Of course the Great Wall worked.

You're making a bold claim that multiple dynasties stretching from the Ming all the way back to the Qin almost 3 millennia of multiple dynasties, over thousands of miles, at the cost of vast sums of blood and treasure, undertook a useless construction project for no benefit, and kept doing it even though multiple dynasties and generations is enough of a timescale to determine its value.

The Qing were not able to sustain more than minor raiding parties south of the wall; their conquest of the Ming happened because of mass riots and revolts within China proper, and a Ming general stationed at the wall letting them in. There are countless examples of the wall posing a serious logistical and tactical hurdle to China's would-be conquerors.
I'm not qualified to comment on whether it was successful at keeping out the malicious spirits many scholars have speculated to have been designed to keep out, but it certainly did nothing against barbarians. (Note that walls keep out horses and vehicles, not people--and the bulk of the wall segments are already in the mountains.) "No real practical purpose" is perhaps overly dismissive, but it's not a "bold claim" that its economic, spiritual, and political significance and the use of its watchtowers to rapidly relay warnings and messages were far, far more significant than its use as a fortification. At any rate, my original point stands: there are more interesting Chinese wonders and unique infrastructure available for the having; we don't need the Great Wall in every game.
 
I'm not qualified to comment on whether it was successful at keeping out the malicious spirits many scholars have speculated to have been designed to keep out, but it certainly did nothing against barbarians. (Note that walls keep out horses and vehicles, not people--and the bulk of the wall segments are already in the mountains.) "No real practical purpose" is perhaps overly dismissive, but it's not a "bold claim" that its economic, spiritual, and political significance and the use of its watchtowers to rapidly relay warnings and messages were far, far more significant than its use as a fortification. At any rate, my original point stands: there are more interesting Chinese wonders and unique infrastructure available for the having; we don't need the Great Wall in every game.
I can't see the Great Wall not getting in a civ game, whether it's a wonder or a unique infrastructure.
It's one of the New Seven Wonders of the World.
 
I can't see the Great Wall not getting in a civ game, whether it's a wonder or a unique infrastructure.
It's one of the New Seven Wonders of the World.
I mean, there are zillions of the those lists that are all different based on the priorities of the writer. :p But I agree it's going to be included because it's a meme. I'm just saying we don't need it with so many other interesting Chinese wonders and infrastructures. (That being said, I'd rather it be a wonder than a UI. I'd like to see China get a taixue or shuyuan [probably the former since the latter is the same Chinese character as seoweon] as its UI.)
 
I mean, there are zillions of the those lists that are all different based on the priorities of the writer. :p
I'm talking about an official list where the results were revealed in 2007. :p https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_7_Wonders_of_the_World
(That being said, I'd rather it be a wonder than a UI. I'd like to see China get a taixue or shuyuan [probably the former since the latter is the same Chinese character as seoweon] as its UI.)
I'd like China to get a "pavilion" surrounded by a garden as a unique improvement. :)
 
but it certainly did nothing against barbarians.
Hard to prove a negative, all the invasions or border skirmishes which were avoided due to the presence of the walls. Direct attacks against the great wall were almost never attempted, they were an effective deterrent and protection against nomadic people for millenia. At minimum, they required invaders to trek hundreds of kilometers around stretches of the walls, or divert to outlying regions of China in order to avoid direct fighting against entrenched Chinese defenses.

Qin Shi Huang used wall constructions to enclose areas of pasture land, cutting the Xiongnu off from territory and solidifying a northern border, which had been loosely defined. Cyrus could have learned a thing or two.

Large stretches of the wall were created by the Han along the Hexi corridor as a static defense against Xiongnu after the breakdown of the Heqin marriage alliance/tributary agreement with the Xiongnu. The Han's construction of the wall, in combination with military settlements (tuntian) along the trade route broke the economic base of the Xiongnu and the confederation dissipated as a result.

Of the post-Tang conquest dynasties that did succeed in invading and controlling China, beyond simple raids over the walls:
The Liao were established in the aftermath of the An Lushan and Huang Chao Rebellions, after military and economic setbacks had shattered the Tang into numerous warlord states. When the Khitan rose to power in Northern China, constructions hadn't been done on the walls for centuries and they were unmanned. And what did the Liao do? They built new walls in present-day Hebei province.
The Jin were set up on invitation by the Song dynasty in a military alliance against the Liao. The Jurchen clans already held populations on both sides of the Liao-constructed walls before they rose up to overthrow them. Once in power, the Jin -- the barbarians -- renewed construction of the walls, as a way to deter the Mongols.
the Yuan dynasty was only set up after multiple attempts to conquer China over 3 generations. Genghis Khan never attacked the walls, and had his armies ride long distances to circumvent the walls. The Yuan dynasty never added to the construction of the walls, mostly seeing it as unnecessary since they controlled territory far beyond the extent of the walls.

When the Yuan Dynasty fell, the Ming re-started construction of the walls, and form most of the parts that tourists think of as the Great Wall today. These fortifications were extensive, and secured the Ming northern border for centuries. As I said, the only reason the Qing were able to enter China was because they were invited by Wu Sangui, a Ming general, who opened the gates for them and allied with the Manchus to defeat a rebel leader who had captured Beijing, Li Zicheng. By this point the Ming were bankrupt, and being torn apart by multiple rebel armies setting up their own dynasties. The Ming emperor had already committed suicide before the Manchus had set foot into China proper.

And what did the Qing do after they conquered China? They built walls. Though these walls were actually pointed the other direction, and were designed to keep Chinese peasants from migrating into the Manchu's homeland. These walls aren't considered part of The Great Wall, but are instead referred to as the Willow Palisade.
 
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The Liao were established in the aftermath of the An Lushan and Huang Chao Rebellions, after military and economic setbacks had shattered the Tang into numerous warlord states. When the Khitan rose to power in Northern China, constructions hadn't been done on the walls for centuries and they were unmanned. And what did the Liao do? They built new walls in present-day Hebei province.
Are Liao sinic people before 'Five Kingdoms Ten Dynasties' era? or did they becomes Chinese after they partitioned Tang empire?
And why did Khitan (Qidan) becomes a russian word that means China/Chinese despite that both peoples are fundamentally different? (Khitan being pastoral people while Han Chinese are agrarians and citydwellers).
 
Are Liao sinic people before 'Five Kingdoms Ten Dynasties' era?
The Khitan were proto-Mongolic people
Well, Para-Mongolic--that is, their language was related to Mongolic but not by direct descent. This was also probably the case for Ruanruan, the language of the Rouran Khaganate.

And why did Khitan (Qidan) becomes a russian word that means China/Chinese despite that both peoples are fundamentally different? (Khitan being pastoral people while Han Chinese are agrarians and citydwellers).
Basically, with a few exceptions, the vast majority of the world's languages have a name for China that is derived from one of two sources: (Qín) or 契丹 (Qìdān/Kara Khitan/Khitai/Cathay). Generally speaking, languages that have a derivative of Qin are to the west of China and received their word for China from Persian, while those with a derivative from Khitai are generally to the north or northwest of China.
 
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