Xens' criteria for what makes a good civ

[music_theory7]

The Byzantines were good I give you that but in the latter yrs 100A.D. on they used mercaniares for combat. They even used Huns.... lol. Also they should have free walls cause constantanoble was know for a it's triple walls and thickness. They should have a more powerful trimre too! -since they were the only ones that knew how to build it in the dark ages....lol

 

[StabbingNirvana]

yea. the byzantines were like the richest country type thing back in their time. crazy ottomans though. ill have to show them whose boss when i buy conquests ... MWA HA HA HA HA HA

 

[Louis XXIV]

Originally posted by music_theory7
The Byzantines were good I give you that but in the latter yrs 100A.D. on they used mercaniares for combat.

So? Carthage's army was completely made up of Mercenaries. Mercenary armies were just as good (and sometimes better) than standing armies.

They even used Huns.... lol.

Sounds like a good idea. Very few nations could stop Atilla's army, so why not have that army for yourself?

 

[pawpaw]

Originally posted by music_theory7
The Byzantines were good I give you that but in the latter yrs 100A.D. on they used mercaniares for combat. They even used Huns.... lol.

100ad on-- constantinople wasn't built till after 300ad, and a seperate eastern empire for good till 476ad

they only used mercanaries heavily during 400--600ad, after that they reorganized the military into the thema-a national army

the huns were good light cavalry,everybody used them


P.S. i can't believe someone came on xen (my middle name is cataphract ) thread and bad mouthed the byzantines

 

[Dargoth]

Originally posted by pawpaw



P.S. i can't believe someone came on xen (my middle name is cataphract ) thread and bad mouthed the byzantines

I think xens about to respond!! (I can hear the sound of heavy cavalry charging across the forum)

 

[Xen]

*distant thunder of hooves grows louder*

*over a near by hillock, a great banner, red with a great eagke on it appears....*

*The full outline of the standard bearer becomes evident, followed by a an officer, witha great crest, a signal of his status on his head, followed by the rest of the cataphractii moira (1/6 of an "stratos, or army core)

and then comes the mighty champion of Byzantium himself, the Xenophract

now then, to crush the barbarian hordes....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by music_theory7
The Byzantines were good I give you that but in the latter yrs 100A.D. on they used mercaniares for combat. They even used Huns.... lol. Also they should have free walls cause constantanoble was know for a it's triple walls and thickness. They should have a more powerful trimre too! -since they were the only ones that knew how to build it in the dark ages....lol

well first off, pawpaw is very acurate, though eventually, after the fiasco at Manzikert, the Byzantines would be forced to start using mercenaries again, as there main area of strength had just been stripped (this combined with the fall of the thematic system to greedy nobles...)

It should also be said that even though they did use huns at first, the Cataphract was FAR superior to there light cavalry in all respects, being able skirmishers, or shock cavalry or most roles in between, and that is why they did not continue to use them

Originally posted by Dargoth
Why the Cataphract?

You could use the Fire Galley/War Galley/Gun Galley or Byzantine Infantry

(Yes I got the list from Medevial Total war)[/B]

because they dont reflect the actual basis of the Byzantine milatary.

people dont seem to understand just how VITAL cataphracts were to the Byzantine army, but this may help-

There is controversy over the effectiveness of the Byzantine infantry, called Skutatoi. They were generally armed with spear and shield, and sometimes tiny javelins referred to as "darts." They normally wore leather armor, at the heaviest, and often gave a good account of themselves. At other times, Belisarius seems to shield them from the heaviest fighting, being anxious about their performance. A good example of this would be the Battle of Ad Decimum against the Vandals. The infantry was left in the camp, and it was the Byzantine cavalry that did the day's fighting.

not to mention, think of what the other choices are

-boat

-boat

-boat

-medeval infantry

- to me, they all would suck bigguns in the game stripping the fun away from the Byzantines (never ming that whore Theodora....)

 

[Dargoth]

What about Varangian guard? Which where Byzantines mercenarys

 

[Xen]

they were mercenaries...

and evn though Carthage may have them (there was a better choice of UU, there punic cavalry to, which would have been so much better...) Byzantine should not, as they were not in use in the Golden age of Byzantium (aroun the Time of Heracleus I, i belive)

 

[Dargoth]

Originally posted by Xen
they were mercenaries...

and evn though Carthage may have them (there was a better choice of UU, there punic cavalry to, which would have been so much better...) Byzantine should not, as they were not in use in the Golden age of Byzantium (aroun the Time of Heracleus I, i belive)

Then put them later in the tech tree

 

[Xen]

But that still dosent address the fact of the cataphract being the mainstay of byzantine warfare....or the fact that the Vanagrians were not even citizens of byzantium....

 

[Dargoth]

They where still units in Byzantines army

 

[Xen]

and the ballistae were in the Roman army, but you dont see a UU of them....

 

[Dargoth]

Originally posted by Xen
and the ballistae were in the Roman army, but you dont see a UU of them....

maybe they should be

 

[Xen]

why? they (and i talk of both Ballistas, and Vanagrians here)

were ONLY components of the army, but not the MAJOR part of the army- UUs' are supposed top reflect the unit of milatary preferance in the cuv, and for the Byzantines, this is most certainlly the cataphract

 

[Dargoth]

Originally posted by Xen
why? they (and i talk of both Ballistas, and Vanagrians here)

were ONLY components of the army, but not the MAJOR part of the army- UUs' are supposed top reflect the unit of milatary preferance in the cuv, and for the Byzantines, this is most certainlly the cataphract

im in favour of Multiple Unique units

 

[Tathlum]

Xens right ya know. Non unit better sums up the Byzantines than Cataphrachts. Even in the western Empire before it fell Cataphrachts (though not identical to byzantine cataphrachts who were better) had replaced Legions as the elite. Comitenses and Limitatae defended the borders but Cataphrachts won the battles.
Other Byzantine troops were very important (scutatoi to hold the lines, FireGalleys on the seas) and the byzantines were great proponents of "combined arms" tactics right up there with Alexandrian Macedonians and Barcid Carthaginians but ass-kicking, battle-winning, symbols of Byzantine might were the beloved (of Xen) Cataphrachts.
So can we all admit He was right all along and argue bout somethin new? Please?:rant:

 

[Louis XXIV]

Plus, Cataphracts are better known.

Most UUs are famous. The only exception I can think of is the Numidian Mercenary. But I don't think War Elephants would be a good choice anyway.

Vanagrian's could possibly be the UU. But I think you can squeeze another UU out of the Knight, so you might as well.

 

[Xen]

the have actualley extended the life of the knight by giving the UUs' of the Mongols, ans Arabs a point less in defence, and making them cheaper, which leaves a great opining for a cataphract at those now famous stats of 5-3-2

I to would enjoy talking of a new topic, dont get me wrong I love Byzantium, and could talk about it longer, and in more detail, but we neeed to keep things fresh, and alive

besides, i still hold fast to the argument of macchivelianism for UUs' (the end justifies the means), in this case, the Cataphract, being the most fun, and useful unit possible for Byzantium being a Cataphracr replaceing the knight, justifies its' inclusion, not to mention all the historical weight justifing them...

... other wise the only UU that could be justified would be the modern UU, the CFC forumer Xen, with special UU ability of "weighty argument" taking away one hp on an enemy unit (although the Xen is NOT artillery, it just gets that as a bonus to its normal stats...)