SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

[Kaitzilla]

We've spawned a 20% non-GScientist when we were pretty keen on getting a lot of them. One way to catch up is to let the AIs tech the first thing we were going to bulb (Philo) and because we've got a GSpy, use only a fraction of its value to steal Philo instead. The cost is that it is a long time before we get holy-city religious bonuses to espionage. However having an earlier state religion will cost us diplomatically. We can get the 15% state-religion bonus with Judaism in Trojan Horse if we want it and work at it.

If we'd have used our first GScientist to bulb Philo and thought nothing of it, why are we concerned by the idea of instead stealing Philo without religious bonuses for a fraction of the value of a GSpy?

Of all the techs to bulb, Philosophy is a pretty good one. It opens up Pacifism, gets us a religious capital which is pretty useful with 2 great spys, is great for trading, opens up Liberalism, and AI avoid teching it once someone has it I think. If we went ahead and bulbed it, we would be in a position to ignore needed diversions from beelining to UN. We can steal every military and gold generating tech.

Better than Compass or Paper usually. And if the AI gets it first, then just steal it and pocket the Great Scientist for bulbing Paper or double bulbing Education whose universities we get for the hammer costs of libraries.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I think we should not trade for monarchy and monotheism. What do we need monarchy for? I don't think we will need longbows for our offensive war. Monarchy will be a lot cheaper later and we will hopefully have currency to balance the trade. I don't think we need Monotheism soon either. I just want to slow the dispersal of techs that don't need to be spread around.

Ah Shulec makes a good point .



We don't really need monarchy and monotheism now that I think on it. Why take the gamble. It would just be two more AI who might get Parthenon or Literature beeline into their heads.

 

[bcool]

It seems that at least one of Gandhi and Monte have a "will trade monopoly techs at Pleased" personality.

Code of Laws isn't a monopoly tech. It is a tech with a wonder attached to it, so some AI won't trade if they have started the wonder. I think it is too early to say Gandhi and Monte have a personality that will trade monopoly techs at pleased.

Re: monarchy and monotheism trade
I agree the monarchy and monotheism trade can wait.

Re: Philosophy
I think a switch to caste system is not a bad idea (without a GA). We can run lots of specialists in Gems and GPFarm to prevent them from going over happiness limits at the very least which will significantly accelerate our tech rate for literature and currency (assuming that is what makes sense after seeing the what the AI are teching).

If we get a great scientist and philosophy still hasn't been researched then we can consider if it is worth bulbing or not at that time.

We do want to prevent the western witches from beelining liberalism, and teching philosophy ourselves could be a big factor in that decision by the western witches. So I think going for it isn't a bad idea at all. (as Kaitzilla argued above)

Of course the back up plan of stealing is quite good too. But I think the philosophy run is worth 2 turns of anarchy. By the way we could likely go into organized relgion when we switch back to slavery, so really only 1 turn of anarchy to really boost our research and production temporarily so we can get key techs faster? Not bad in my mind.

Of course we will know more when we infiltrate the western witches on T103 ( the next stopping point I assume)

 

[Kaitzilla]

Yes! If switching back to slavery and organized religion can be done in a single turn of anarchy because our empire is small, that would be awesome. Whipping Forges with the building bonus and whipping further buildings with the building and forge bonus is crazy good.

 

[bcool]

Just tested it, with 2 more cities (Marble and Ivory sites) we still can switch 2 civics with only 1 turn of anarchy.

 

[bcool]

I think the hanging gardens finishes T104 with 2 more chops (one 3 north of washington and the one south of Boston)
This means Eiffel must move to the forest this turn to chop and finish on T104 and we definitely want to delay the marble settler until the forest 1S of Boston finishes.

We probably want to decide to switch to caste system on T105 unless we find something exceptional with the infiltration on T103.

 

[Manco Capac]

It seems that at least one of Gandhi and Monte have a "will trade monopoly techs at Pleased" personality.

This puzzles me over an hour; how one member of a team will affect capacity to freely trade a monopoly tech? Isn't this capacity down to the same level as OB where one member like Toku will make the team refusal to open border because they share the capacity of OB? I would understand an AI like MM refuses to trade a monopoly tech because he is teamed with another AI unwilling to tech trade below friendly attitude.
True both members are pleased towards GWS/WWS and vice-versa, but I hardly imagine both member of one team share the capacity to trade monopoly techs at pleased.

And (perhaps due to my lack of experience, perhaps), are they leaders who give away monopoly techs at pleased. I don't remember seen any or I missed something...friendly attitude is necessary.

Or does it have to do with random personalities after that small sentence from that thread OP:

"Random Leader Personalities" causes the game to ignore the information that defines leader personality in this file, and build their personalities from scratch.

The word "scratch" leads me to think completely random specs for the leader instead of shuffling XML as I learnt somewhere on the forum.
I may imagine, I hope, he doesn't know what he is talking about, otherwise random personalities U.N. will be a painstaking journey. Technically, I am sure we won't identify the AI's real personalities, so it already a hard journey.

 

[shulec]

This puzzles me over an hour; how one member of a team will affect capacity to freely trade a monopoly tech? Isn't this capacity down to the same level as OB where one member like Toku will make the team refusal to open border because they share the capacity of OB? I would understand an AI like MM refuses to trade a monopoly tech because he is teamed with another AI unwilling to tech trade below friendly attitude.
True both members are pleased towards GWS/WWS and vice-versa, but I hardly imagine both member of one team share the capacity to trade monopoly techs at pleased.

And (perhaps due to my lack of experience, perhaps), are they leaders who give away monopoly techs at pleased. I don't remember seen any or I missed something...friendly attitude is necessary.

Or does it have to do with random personalities after that small sentence from that thread OP:



The word "scratch" leads me to think completely random specs for the leader instead of shuffling XML as I learnt somewhere on the forum.
I may imagine, I hope, he doesn't know what he is talking about, otherwise random personalities U.N. will be a painstaking journey.

Perhaps the witches that won't trade CoL are the outliers. There are four AI that have this tech. How can we call this a monopoly? Yes, I get it that two teams have it, and there for, it may be viewed by the AI as a monopoly.

The most simple explanation (which is usually correct) is that game mechanics facilitate that if three AI, whether on a team or not, have a tech, if is not considered a monopoly. The real issue is that the other AI will not trade it because they may be going for the wonder.

 

[mabraham]

As bc corrected me earlier, CoL is not a tech being withheld because of a monopoly, it's being withheld because of the wonder. It is not clear without using a mouse-over on the tech-trading matrix screen whether MC is in either category.

 

[shulec]

Of course, an argument against what I just posted is that four civs have construction and none will trade it.

Bottom line, I never tried to understand this in my games and probably just accepted it and tried to get people to friendly!

 

[Manco Capac]

Perhaps the witches that won't trade CoL are the outliers. There are four AI that have this tech. How can we call this a monopoly? Yes, I get it that two teams have it, and there for, it may be viewed by the AI as a monopoly.

I already mulled over this and I have difficulty to imagine the loser team to confucianism still pursued the race until tech is done. I have often seen a complete switch of target tech after a loss to a race. And regarding excellent timing, it is impossible because player/AI's turns are sequenced one after the other. But I think I have seen loser civs to continue on the tech if almost completed.

The most simple explanation (which is usually correct) is that game mechanics facilitate that if three AI, whether on a team or not, have a tech, if is not considered a monopoly. The real issue is that the other AI will not trade it because they may be going for the wonder.

Are you meaning >2 civs/teams possessing a respective tech will no longer consider a monopoly over it. But it depends of leaders...sorry if I mess the thought.

 

[Manco Capac]

Of course, an argument against what I just posted is that four civs have construction and none will trade it.

Bottom line, I never tried to understand this in my games and probably just accepted it and tried to get people to friendly!

I think partial answer is there...and overthere...

 

[Manco Capac]

As bc corrected me earlier, CoL is not a tech being withheld because of a monopoly, it's being withheld because of the wonder. It is not clear without using a mouse-over on the tech-trading matrix screen whether MC is in either category.

Okay, I found out I missed a page for updating reading...

playing the test game, and 4 AI know Code of Laws but are not willing to trade it since the silly Chichen Itza wonder is unlocked by it. This is a real possibility in the real game too.

I guess that's bcool explanations, right?
Just to be sure, we are talking WDWTST (we don't want to start trading ...) and not "We have our reasons"?
If first, I think bcool is referring to :

CvTeamAI::AI_getTechMonopolyValue(). Techs that unlock powerful units (>50% of strength of best land unit currently in the game, effect increased if AI is in WHEOOHRN; Optics is pushed if circumnavigation is still available; ...) buildings and available wonders/projects get high TechMonopolyValue-modifiers.

It is still component/factor of monopoly tech ...

---------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry for these tergiversations, but I am trying to figure out how the hell Witches of the West got a hand on the tech CoL...and why they want to trade it away...

I suppose the simplest explanation is:
In the world, there are five teams including us (one member team),
in WDWTST considerations, the trader pair (player and the target AI) is excluded, thus the KnownPercent of teams is based on three teams, giving leaps of 33,3...%.
Therefore, both partners in team give away techs at 30 % and under of KnownPercent.
Unfortunately, 28 out of 52 leaders satisfy that condition. :sniff:

 

[Manco Capac]

Perhaps the witches that won't trade CoL are the outliers. There are four AI that have this tech.

To make sure we are on the same vibration: Tech trading capacity isn't measured in terms of AI's but teams. Therefrom to WW or SW points of view, only 33,3...% of the world knows CoL.

...I don't understand...the outliers thing...merriam-webster online dictionary won't make it clearer for me.

Let's stop the soliloquy Tachywaxon for today...lets go to bed.
Anyways, I am completely sidetrack to the main grand strategy.

 

[Manco Capac]

thx

Nobody commented on that before, and i asked it after my 1st turnset

Yeah! You are not settler level anymore since a long time.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

I'd play the T101 - T103 (infiltration) tonight, in about 10 hours from now. Please tell me if you think I should wait for more tests, or my plan is not acceptable. I know the protocol demands waiting 24 hours between plan posting and playing, but the last PPP with bcool's changes is almost the same as this one.

Spoiler :

Units:
The T102 settler from gems city heads towards the marble site to settle T104.
The exploring workboats continue their yourney. The one N of Isengard follows the isthmus, and gets back towards the GP farm when it reaches the "bridge". The northern WB explores the Nothern's witches coast heading West. The WB 1S1E of Marble site improves Culture bridge's clams on T102. The WB produced in Stone will be used to improve the marble site crabs.
The great spy heads further into the western witches culture.The other G spy infiltrates Trojan horse city T103.
The wounded archer heals in Isengard's culture.


Tech trading / research:
T101 Trade aesthetics to the Western witches for CoL (the city gift to Monty was a diplo boost, so idk which is best - get more, or get a boost with Gandhi); research Literature.

Cities/worker actions
Washington
T101 start HG; growth, Working sheep, corn, cow and grassland mine.
T105 Growth,

Hoover
T100 chop the forest into the aqueduct to overflow into the HG
T101 move to the forest 1N1E
T102 chop
T104 finish chop for Washington
T105 move to marble hill – planned but not executed

New worker from Stone city

T102 move 1S2W, to the Wash/SC shared tile for a cottage


Stone city
T100 build worker,
T101 2 pop whip worker at 29/60 hammers; working gold, rice,stone, crabs, oasis
T102 Overflow goes into a Spy
T103 Spy produced and heads for Trojan horse city
T104 Build Spy or a scouting chariot; Growth, add 1 scientist,

Gems city
T101 Finish settler to be able to settle marble site T104 after the chop 1S of Boston; working wheat, gems, deer, crabs, grass mine, grassland and 2 scientists.
T102 Continue spy or whip him

Fritz
T101 build mine (continued)
T104 move to gems
T105 move to PH 2S of GP farm for a mine (great library needs hammers, and we will be getting Literature pretty soon).

GP farm
T101 Build research. We have 1t in a spy from T100. Working pigs, fish, clams, FP farm, grassland farm, coast and 2 scientists.
T103 growth, add coast
T105 growth, add coast
We could whip a spy T101 for 2 population. Growth would be a bit different in that case. The spy would be sitting in Trojan horse from T104 I think.


Eiffel
T100 move 1S1W, farm
T101 move to river PH 1N2E of GP farm (it's a PH, not grass like in the test game)
T102 build mine

Goodyear
T100 finish farm
T101 move to forest 3N of Washington
T102 chop
T104 Finish chop

Isengard
T100 build chariot, working fish, horse, sheep
T101 growth, 2 pop whip barracks, work fish and sheep
T102 OF into an Axeman; work sheep and horse to finish same turn
T103 Chariot; growth, add fish
T104 Switch horses to cows to get growth next turn.
T105 growth, add horses

Karl
T100 finish road
T101 start mine
T103 move to cows, pasture

Yamamoto
T100 finish road
T101 move to copper hill, mine
T103move to cow, pasture

Silver city
T100 Build library, switch fish to pigs
T102 growth, work fish and pigs
T103 growth, add PH mine
T105 growth

Stevenson
T100 finish pig pasture
T101 move to silver
T102 mine

Culture bridge city
T100 build granary, switch grass mine to improved crabs
T102 growth, whip granary
T103 lighthouse
T105 growth, work crabs and clams

As you can see, I'm not sure of what to build in stone city after the spy. I think we need a few scouting chariots to seek for the wizard, and those could be built in Isengard instead.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

I made some rough calculations for our research in the next few turns.

At T101 we have 35 gold in the bank, and making +11gpt, and +46 bpt. Maintanance at 100% science costs -53 gold, and gives +122 bakers.
Suppose everything stays the same (which is never the case), we will be at 57 gold on T103, and able to run the slider at 100% for one turn.
That would make 46x4 + 122 = 306 bakers at T105. With a scientist in Washington on T105, we would be at 313 bakers, and get Literature at T106 (the cost is 312).
Too early for the marble to be hooked up, and too early for GP farm's mines. Will we start the G library without marble?

We will be having some units built in this period, but also some growth and new tiles worked.

Tell me if it's not the way for it to be calculated.

 

[shulec]

What are your stopping points?

I think we need to beg Monty to change to slavery. The minimal risk is that we can't beg for 25-30 turns.

Also, trade Aesthetics with Gandhi to see if we can can any fair trade diplo bonus since we are capped at +4 with Monty.

 

[mabraham]

I'd play the T101 - T103 (infiltration) tonight, in about 10 hours from now. Please tell me if you think I should wait for more tests, or my plan is not acceptable. I know the protocol demands waiting 24 hours between plan posting and playing, but the last PPP with bcool's changes is almost the same as this one.

Spoiler :

Units:
The T102 settler from gems city heads towards the marble site to settle T104.
The exploring workboats continue their yourney. The one N of Isengard follows the isthmus, and gets back towards the GP farm when it reaches the "bridge". The northern WB explores the Nothern's witches coast heading West. The WB 1S1E of Marble site improves Culture bridge's clams on T102. The WB produced in Stone will be used to improve the marble site crabs.
The great spy heads further into the western witches culture.The other G spy infiltrates Trojan horse city T103.
The wounded archer heals in Isengard's culture.


Tech trading / research:
T101 Trade aesthetics to the Western witches for CoL (the city gift to Monty was a diplo boost, so idk which is best - get more, or get a boost with Gandhi); research Literature.

Cities/worker actions
Washington
T101 start HG; growth, Working sheep, corn, cow and grassland mine.
T105 Growth,

Hoover
T100 chop the forest into the aqueduct to overflow into the HG
T101 move to the forest 1N1E
T102 chop
T104 finish chop for Washington
T105 move to marble hill – planned but not executed

New worker from Stone city

T102 move 1S2W, to the Wash/SC shared tile for a cottage


Stone city
T100 build worker,
T101 2 pop whip worker at 29/60 hammers; working gold, rice,stone, crabs, oasis
T102 Overflow goes into a Spy
T103 Spy produced and heads for Trojan horse city
T104 Build Spy or a scouting chariot; Growth, add 1 scientist,

Gems city
T101 Finish settler to be able to settle marble site T104 after the chop 1S of Boston; working wheat, gems, deer, crabs, grass mine, grassland and 2 scientists.
T102 Continue spy or whip him

Fritz
T101 build mine (continued)
T104 move to gems
T105 move to PH 2S of GP farm for a mine (great library needs hammers, and we will be getting Literature pretty soon).

GP farm
T101 Build research. We have 1t in a spy from T100. Working pigs, fish, clams, FP farm, grassland farm, coast and 2 scientists.
T103 growth, add coast
T105 growth, add coast
We could whip a spy T101 for 2 population. Growth would be a bit different in that case. The spy would be sitting in Trojan horse from T104 I think.


Eiffel
T100 move 1S1W, farm
T101 move to river PH 1N2E of GP farm (it's a PH, not grass like in the test game)
T102 build mine

Goodyear
T100 finish farm
T101 move to forest 3N of Washington
T102 chop
T104 Finish chop

Isengard
T100 build chariot, working fish, horse, sheep
T101 growth, 2 pop whip barracks, work fish and sheep
T102 OF into an Axeman; work sheep and horse to finish same turn
T103 Chariot; growth, add fish
T104 Switch horses to cows to get growth next turn.
T105 growth, add horses

Karl
T100 finish road
T101 start mine
T103 move to cows, pasture

Yamamoto
T100 finish road
T101 move to copper hill, mine
T103move to cow, pasture

Silver city
T100 Build library, switch fish to pigs
T102 growth, work fish and pigs
T103 growth, add PH mine
T105 growth

Stevenson
T100 finish pig pasture
T101 move to silver
T102 mine

Culture bridge city
T100 build granary, switch grass mine to improved crabs
T102 growth, whip granary
T103 lighthouse
T105 growth, work crabs and clams

As you can see, I'm not sure of what to build in stone city after the spy. I think we need a few scouting chariots to seek for the wizard, and those could be built in Isengard instead.

Looks basically good, but I don't think we need all the spies mentioned. There's a stop-gap spy on the queue in GPfarm, which is fine, but we should not whip it. Stone City is producing the first spy, which is great. I don't think we need any more until we know we've lost the first one .

 

[mabraham]

I made some rough calculations for our research in the next few turns.

At T101 we have 35 gold in the bank, and making +11gpt, and +46 bpt. Maintanance at 100% science costs -53 gold, and gives +122 bakers.
Suppose everything stays the same (which is never the case), we will be at 57 gold on T103, and able to run the slider at 100% for one turn.
That would make 46x4 + 122 = 306 bakers at T105. With a scientist in Washington on T105, we would be at 313 bakers, and get Literature at T106 (the cost is 312).
Too early for the marble to be hooked up, and too early for GP farm's mines. Will we start the G library without marble?

We will be having some units built in this period, but also some growth and new tiles worked.

Tell me if it's not the way for it to be calculated.

That will be more "base" beakers than we actually require, because there is a hidden scaling between the bpt you can see in the top left, and the amount that actually goes onto the tech bar. It never decreases the bpt, but that's all I know without digging in the forum.

I think we are likely to want to start the GLib as soon as we get Literature. Efficiency from having marble is not important given that it is coming ASAP, but speed is important for securing the wonders and starting to reap the benefits. Two turns of undoubled hammers saves a turn of doubled hammers...