SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

What are your stopping points?

I think we need to beg Monty to change to slavery. The minimal risk is that we can't beg for 25-30 turns.

There's no down side, but there's not much up side either.

Monty isn't going to pop a GScientist at home, because he shares Gandhi's :gp: pool.

His culture in Trojan Horse is not really a pressing issue. One artist can't take outer-ring tiles from GPFarm, or inner-ring tiles from Gems City. I think we'll have to do rather a lot of work to take Gems City's outer-ring tiles from Trojan Horse, whether Monte has an artist or not, and we've got two other hills there we're not using yet...

Also, trade Aesthetics with Gandhi to see if we can can any fair trade diplo bonus since we are capped at +4 with Monty.

Yes, we, may as well do that.
 
That will be more "base" beakers than we actually require, because there is a hidden scaling between the bpt you can see in the top left, and the amount that actually goes onto the tech bar. It never decreases the bpt, but that's all I know without digging in the forum.

That's what I noticed in my first test game long time ago; do you have some hints how to find the info on the forum. I am sure not really, but asking is risk free. ;)
 
If a tech has a prerequisite then the displayed beakers are multiplied by 1.2 to calculate the actual progress towards the tech. If a tech has 2 optional prerequisites then the displayed beakers are multiplied by 1.4. There is another factor for the how many AI know the tech as well.

Basically you can assume we are getting 1.2 times the displayed beakers for literature since no AI knows it yet.

Almost all techs have prerequisites except the first techs.

Okay I have a proposal
Maybe we should tech currency first since we probably will be able to still get Literature by the time we have Marble. And while I partially agree with mabraham that we want Literature asap and it helps to get started on it. We really don't have mines built for GPFarm yet.

In fact I think we might want to whip a worker in GPFarm for max OF and save those hammers for when we do get Marble (so that worker can also help with the mines). I know (have a gut feeling) this is better than just building the great library and the NE straight out.
 
comments in blue.
summary of changes...
I disagree with mabraham we want at least 3 spies in the short term.

I think we start and whip a worker in GP Farm and save the OF hammers for the Great Library when we have Marble.

I thought we could get currency before Literature, but I think we want to get Literature first. plus we have at least a decent shot at stealing currency from an AI who might be researching it for us.

We can send Goodyear down to help with the Marble after he chops the forests 3N of washington. So Marble is coming soonish.
Plus we have a turn of anarchy likely T105.

Micro can finish Hanging Gardens T104.



I'd play the T101 - T103 (infiltration) tonight, in about 10 hours from now. Please tell me if you think I should wait for more tests, or my plan is not acceptable. I know the protocol demands waiting 24 hours between plan posting and playing, but the last PPP with bcool's changes is almost the same as this one.

Spoiler :
Units:
The T102 settler from gems city heads towards the marble site to settle T104.
I know I said this before but it is important to settle after the chop near Boston which also happens on T104
The exploring workboats continue their yourney. The one N of Isengard follows the isthmus, and gets back towards the GP farm when it reaches the "bridge". The northern WB explores the Nothern's witches coast heading West. The WB 1S1E of Marble site improves Culture bridge's clams on T102. The WB produced in Stone will be used to improve the marble site crabs.
The great spy heads further into the western witches culture.The other G spy infiltrates Trojan horse city T103.
The wounded archer heals in Isengard's culture.


Tech trading / research:
T101 Trade aesthetics to the Western witches for CoL (the city gift to Monty was a diplo boost, so idk which is best - get more, or get a boost with Gandhi); research Literature.
trade with gandhi as others have suggested

Cities/worker actions
Washington
T101 start HG; growth, Working sheep, corn, cow and grassland mine.
On T104 look at the hammer situation, you might want to stretch by working more hammer tiles to get the Hanging Gardens on T104 after the chops
T104 Growth and I think we work all 3 mines, cows, sheep to finish the hanging gardens
T105 Growth,

Hoover
T100 chop the forest into the aqueduct to overflow into the HG
T101 move to the forest 1N1E
T102 chop
T104 finish chop for Washington
T105 move to marble hill – planned but not executed

New worker from Stone city

T102 move 1S2W, to the Wash/SC shared tile for a cottage
Might want to send this guy down to help with the Marble depending on what tech path we choose. So maybe work your way down, move, cottage, move, cottage, move ...set yourself up to move onto the marble on T104.


Stone city
T100 build worker,
T101 2 pop whip worker at 29/60 hammers; working gold, rice,stone, crabs, oasis
T102 Overflow goes into a Spy
T103 Spy produced and heads for Trojan horse city
T104 Build Spy or a scouting chariot; Growth, add 1 scientist,
I would say another spy (1 for Trojan Horse, 1 for Boston, 1 to back up Trojan Horse or to be sent to Eastern Witches to scout

Gems city
T101 Finish settler to be able to settle marble site T104 after the chop 1S of Boston; working wheat, gems, deer, crabs, grass mine, grassland and 2 scientists.
T102 Continue spy or whip him
Continue spy, no whip and I think we want this spy. We will be able to do potentially productive things with this spy by the time he is produced. Send him to the eastern witches to scout for example, or send him to Boston to get 50% discount on a tech steal from the North--I think it might be possible with our discounts to get a smallish tech from the north on just our passive espionage alone

Fritz
T101 build mine (continued)
T104 move to gems
T105 move to PH 2S of GP farm for a mine (great library needs hammers, and we will be getting Literature pretty soon).
If we do switch to caste system on T105, this mine will only be used a couple of turns in the near future. While we need several mines for GPFarm. I think it makes better sense to send Fritz immediately to the PH 2S of GPFarm. a worker from Isengard can probably finish the grass mine for Gems on their way back roading eventually.

GP farm
T101 Build research. We have 1t in a spy from T100. Working pigs, fish, clams, FP farm, grassland farm, coast and 2 scientists.
T102 build worker working Pig, Fish, Clam, FPfarm, Gfarm, Gmine, 2 scienitists
T103 build worker working same except switch Gmine to coast (to get most OF from 2 pop whip of worker)
T104 Important build research to preserve the OF hammers from the worker whip
T105 gets additional pop from Hanging Gardens

T105 growth, add coast
We could whip a spy T101 for 2 population. Growth would be a bit different in that case. The spy would be sitting in Trojan horse from T104 I think.



Eiffel
T100 move 1S1W, farm
T101 move to river PH 1N2E of GP farm (it's a PH, not grass like in the test game)
T102 build mine

Goodyear
T100 finish farm
T101 move to forest 3N of Washington
T102 chop
T104 Finish chop

Isengard
T100 build chariot, working fish, horse, sheep
T101 growth, 2 pop whip barracks, work fish and sheep
T102 OF into an Axeman; work sheep and horse to finish same turn
T103 Chariot; growth, add fish
T104 Switch horses to cows to get growth next turn.
T105 growth, add horses

Karl
T100 finish road
T101 start mine
T103 move to cows, pasture

Yamamoto
T100 finish road
T101 move to copper hill, mine
T103move to cow, pasture

Silver city
T100 Build library, switch fish to pigs
T102 growth, work fish and pigs
T103 growth, add PH mine
T105 growth

Stevenson
T100 finish pig pasture
T101 move to silver
T102 mine

Culture bridge city
T100 build granary, switch grass mine to improved crabs
T102 growth, whip granary
T103 lighthouse
T105 growth, work crabs and clams


As you can see, I'm not sure of what to build in stone city after the spy. I think we need a few scouting chariots to seek for the wizard, and those could be built in Isengard instead.
If we do go with my plan to whip a worker in GPFarm, i think we do not want to start the great library in GPFarm until we hook up Marble. If we go with that plan it makes sense to put a hammer into the Great Library somewhere else to discourage the AI from teching Literature.

Also since my suggested changes are somewhat controversial to some. I think you should wait Walter Wolf at least 24 hours from your post.
 
Also since my suggested changes are somewhat controversial to some. I think you should wait Walter Wolf at least 24 hours from your post.

Roger that

I'll update the test game, run some tests, and maybe post a revisioned PPP (again :crazyeye:).
 
If a tech has a prerequisite then the displayed beakers are multiplied by 1.2 to calculate the actual progress towards the tech. If a tech has 2 optional prerequisites then the displayed beakers are multiplied by 1.4. There is another factor for the how many AI know the tech as well.

Basically you can assume we are getting 1.2 times the displayed beakers for literature since no AI knows it yet.

Thank you both mabraham and you (and indirectly Kaitzilla because I remember him posting that link in regards team inflated tech costs).
I noticed it was the freebee beaker I constantly forgot in my calculus, which led me to think "is there something more?"...
Now I got it right. :)

Okay I have a proposal
Maybe we should tech currency first since we probably will be able to still get Literature by the time we have Marble. And while I partially agree with mabraham that we want Literature asap and it helps to get started on it. We really don't have mines built for GPFarm yet.

If we go for Currency first, in hope it isn't a bad choice because losing GLib is too much of a loss, I expect we will use max overflow if possible at the end of Currency as prerequisite techs (math and Alpha) gives a multiplier of *1.4, then the overflow into Literature will retain that multiplier. :think:
Wadda ya think, guyz? :o


Probably you are right, bcool. The AI will eventually tech it. Nonetheless, we always should has in mind beaker overflow uses multiplier of the last tech obtained and try to abuse it conveniently to gain some free beakers.
 
In my experience, if you are going to infiltrate you really need 2 spies right away to be effective. When a spy first ties to steal a tech, it is usually 74% chance of success. If he fails, then 2nd spy gets a chance to steal in the 90%'s.

If we don't whip any spies and just slow build them one at a time, I've seen many times a frustrating string of failures as the years fly by on normal speed. We should really whip them in pairs :crazyeye:

I also agree with Bcool about whipping a worker in GPfarm and switching to beakers to save the max overflow for Great Library. I certainly vote to tech literature first. Lots of AI can now tech literature, and if we tech currency first there is a real chance we won't get the Great Library.
 
I have got a reply from one of those code master, r_rolo1.

The random personality setting basically grabs one leader personality XML and slaps a diferent random name in top. It does not randomize paramethers.

This settles the mechanism of random personalities. :D
So the hunt for hints to uncover true leader behind the mask is justified.

Sorry for these "no one cares" comments, but I prefer to let bcool, mabraham and Kaitzilla handles the grand strategy actions; I like where we are going to. ;)
 
I also agree with Bcool about whipping a worker in GPfarm and switching to beakers to save the max overflow for Great Library. I certainly vote to tech literature first. Lots of AI can now tech literature, and if we tech currency first there is a real chance we won't get the Great Library.

I agree with this too!
 
I disagree with mabraham we want at least 3 spies in the short term.

I agree with a higher number of spies. We'll need to keep them sitting in the target city in order to get the bonuses, and I think loosing turns for walking back from the capital isn't something that would help us in that regard. Maybe we don't really need a dozen right now, but at tleast two or three would be nice to have

I think we start and whip a worker in GP Farm and save the OF hammers for the Great Library when we have Marble.

Good idea, worker turns are needed in several places right now.

I thought we could get currency before Literature, but I think we want to get Literature first. plus we have at least a decent shot at stealing currency from an AI who might be researching it for us.

I vote for Literature first too. The risk of loosing the G library is not worth the few bucks :hmm: we'd get from a few turns earlier Currency. We can trade the stolen techs for gold later. Still, 8 or 9 cities with an extra +2 gold trade route is huge. I'd say stealing Currency is a better option.

We can send Goodyear down to help with the Marble after he chops the forests 3N of washington. So Marble is coming soonish.
Plus we have a turn of anarchy likely T105.

We also have the new worker coming from Stone city T102. I'll check for the best micro. What's the number of turns needed for a quarry? 8? So, if we settle the marble site with a prepositioned worker, and a helper T104, I guess we could have marble hooked up by T107/8

Micro can finish Hanging Gardens T104.
It would be so cool to start Marble site with 2 population ;)


If we do go with my plan to whip a worker in GPFarm, i think we do not want to start the great library in GPFarm until we hook up Marble. If we go with that plan it makes sense to put a hammer into the Great Library somewhere else to discourage the AI from teching Literature.
 
Random thought.

We've been discussing victory conditions from the beginning, and are on a "silent" agreement on diplo UN victory, aren't we. The problem is, we have the ultimate VC here, and that is to "search and destroy" the Wizzard.

IMHO, I think we should build at least 8 (eight) charriots for each of the witches lands, and start seeking aggressively. A spy or two for the non - OB southern witches makes eight exaggerated, but I'd rather exaggerate than spot the wizard with a delay.

I think our biggest mistake so far was poor exploring :scan:.

Edit:

don't get me wrong, I think we are doing a great job ;)
 
I mean, we've had horses since T95 I think, so now is the time to start scouting.

I don't think I remember anyone suggesting it before

edit: khm, it's my turnset, so I am supposed to suggest it :)
 
If we accept a slightly slower (maybe 2 turns?) great scientist we can whip 2 pop whip a spy in Gems, and build a chariot with the overflow. (Assuming we plan to switch to caste system T105...)

This addresses the back up spy Kaitzilla wanted and helps to address the need for exploratory chariots.

If you can you can move the new worker from Stone city onto the marble on T103... Since he would be able to quarry on T104 if we settle then.
 
There's no down side, but there's not much up side either.

Monty isn't going to pop a GScientist at home, because he shares Gandhi's pool.

His culture in Trojan Horse is not really a pressing issue. One artist can't take outer-ring tiles from GPFarm, or inner-ring tiles from Gems City. I think we'll have to do rather a lot of work to take Gems City's outer-ring tiles from Trojan Horse, whether Monte has an artist or not, and we've got two other hills there we're not using yet...

I would rather beg 50-100 gold from him in 10 or so turns instead of a switch to slavery. I agree with mabraham that the upside is minimal now that we look at the details. I was originally concerned about the fresh water lake we were losing but it isn't too big of a deal.
 
If we accept a slightly slower (maybe 2 turns?) great scientist we can whip 2 pop whip a spy in Gems, and build a chariot with the overflow. (Assuming we plan to switch to caste system T105...)

This addresses the back up spy Kaitzilla wanted and helps to address the need for exploratory chariots.

If you can you can move the new worker from Stone city onto the marble on T103... Since he would be able to quarry on T104 if we settle then.

I thought we were still trying to get Philosophy first, delaying the GS decreases our chances. I think the spy needs to come from somewhere else like Silver City or Isengard.
 
Gems city
T101 Finish settler to be able to settle marble site T104 after the chop 1S of Boston; working wheat, gems, deer, crabs, grass mine, grassland and 2 scientists.
T102 Continue spy or whip him
Continue spy, no whip and I think we want this spy. We will be able to do potentially productive things with this spy by the time he is produced. Send him to the eastern witches to scout for example, or send him to Boston to get 50% discount on a tech steal from the North--I think it might be possible with our discounts to get a smallish tech from the north on just our passive espionage alone

If I remember correctly (away from the game) Gems will be at 8 pop on T102 about

T100 settler// work wheat, crabs, gems, deer, grass? 2 scientists 78 28/34 food
T101 spy// work wheat, crabs, gems, deer, grass mine, grass 2 scientists 90 28/34 food
T102 spy 7/40? // whip spy wheat, deer, crabs, gems, 2 scientists 102 17/32 food
T103 chariot finishes with OF this turn // wheat, deer, crabs, gems, 2 scientists 114 23/32 food
T104 lighthouse? // wheat, deer, crabs, gems, 2 scientists, 126 29/32 food
T105 revolt Caste system +1 pop +1 more pop from food from hanging gardens takes effect
T106 lighthouse? // wheat, deer, 6 scientists spy produced 138 17/36 food
T107 lighthouse? // wheat, deer, 6 scientists spy produced 174 13/36 food
T108 lighthouse? // wheat, deer, 6 scientists spy produced 210 9/36 food
T109 lighthouse? // wheat, deer, 6 scientists spy produced 246 5/36 food
T110 lighthouse? // wheat, deer, crabs, gems, grass mine 3 scientists spy produced 282 1/36 food
T111 Great scientist produced (still possible by running 4 scientists on T110 to make up for having 6 less :gp:)

without the whip I think we could get the great scientist T109 with some starvation perhaps. T110 without startvation probably, someone can do the details no more time here.

helps decide if whip of spy worth it.

Okay no whip
T100 spy// work wheat, crabs, gems, deer, grass? 2 scientists 78 28/34 food
T101 settler// work wheat, crabs, gems, deer, grass mine, grass, 2 scientists 90 17/36 food
T102 spy 8/40 // wheat, deer, crabs, gems, grass mine, grass, 2 scientists 102 17/36 food
T103 spy 16/40 // wheat, deer, crabs, gems, grass mine, grass, 2 scientists 114 22/36 food
T104 spy 24/40 // wheat, deer, crabs, gems, grass mine, grass, 2 scientists, 126 27/36 food
T105 revolt Caste system +1 more pop from hanging gardens takes effect
T106 spy 28/40 // wheat, deer, 7 scientists spy produced 138 32/38 food
T107 spy 32/40 // wheat, deer, 7 scientists spy produced 180 26/38 food
T108 spy 36/40 // wheat, deer, 7 scientists spy produced 222 20/38 food
T109 spy produced // wheat, deer, gems, 5 scientists 264 14/38 food
T110 great scientist produced 10/38 food (still possible by running 6 scientists on T109)

with starvation
T100 spy// work wheat, crabs, gems, deer, grass? 2 scientists 78 28/34 food
T101 settler// work wheat, crabs, gems, deer, grass mine, grass, 2 scientists 90 17/36 food
T102 spy 8/40 // wheat, deer, crabs, gems, grass mine, grass, 2 scientists 102 17/36 food
T103 spy 16/40 // wheat, deer, crabs, gems, grass mine, grass, 2 scientists 114 22/36 food
T104 spy 24/40 // wheat, deer, crabs, gems, grass mine, grass, 2 scientists, 126 27/36 food
T105 revolt Caste system +1 more pop from hanging gardens takes effect
T106 spy 26/40 // 9 scientists spy produced 138 32/38 food
T107 spy 28/40 // 9 scientists spy produced 192 16/38 food
T108 spy 30/40 // 9 scientists spy produced 246 0/38 food
T109 spy 32/40 // lose 1 pop great scientist produced. (not possible with 6 less :gp:)

Okay if I understand WalterWolf correctly he turned off 1 scientist in Gems, which means the starvation plan to produce the great scientist T109 doesn't work.
However T110 works without starvation and no whip
T111 works without starvation with the whip.
 
Quote from the PPP on page 80 (your comments in blue):

Units:
The T101 settler from gems city heads towards the marble site to settle T103.
While it makes sense to produce the settler T100 and move him on T101 it does NOT makes sense to settle him earlier. Wait until at least T104 (after the chop finishes 1S of Boston to make sure Washington gets those hammers.

GP farm
T100 Build research, working pigs, fish, clams, FP farm, grassland farm and 2 scientists. If we can get Priesthood without the scientists here, I would work one or two coas tiles instead.
That's fine concerning the scientists, good idea.

Gems city
T100 Build settler, working wheat, gems, deer, crabs, grass mine and 2 scientists.
T101 Settler done, start spy
Make sure you work tiles so that you grow on T101 to set up a possible Caste System run at a great scientist.

hmm, what to say. The idea of working coast tiles in GP farm was to have growth one turn earlier. Your comment on Gems city and the settler sounded like you wanted growth on T101, and delay the settler so it can be produced T102, and settle T104 (I thought no turn skipping).

Now, when looking at the cities yesterday evening, I saw both GP farm and Gems can grow on T101 by putting one scientist in each city to food tiles, and grow on T101, and still get Priesthood in 1T. Gems put (I think) 8 hammers in the spy, so we don't have the settler yet. I see now it was a totally stupid decision, and one that I didn't put in the PPP. While it makes sense to grow in GP farm, as it has a lighthouse and plenty of coast tiles, the extra population in Gems is of no use at all (except a whip perhaps).

This is a screenshot of Gems city I took before closing the game at T101:
Spoiler :


Results:
We lost 1 turn worth GPP points for your plan to work,
We lost some potential bakers overflow, and
We learned I am not ready to change my settler avatar yet :blush:.

I am terribly sorry for this to had happened, I'll have to print out the PPP next time I play (if you let me), and stick to it.

Anyway, I'll try to check if your plan on the G sci works even with my freaky gameplay.

cheers
 

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Walter Wolf you are fine if that is the status of Gems at T101. We have the pop growth already, finish the settler this turn running 2 scientists.

It makes no difference.
T100 spy// work wheat, crabs, gems, deer, grass? 2 scientists 78 28/34 food
T101 settler// work wheat, crabs, gems, deer, grass mine, grass 2 scientists 90-6 28/34 food
T102 spy 8/40 // whip spy wheat, deer, crabs, gems, 2 scientists 102-6 17/32 food
T103 chariot finishes with OF this turn // wheat, deer, crabs, gems, 2 scientists 114-6 23/32 food
T104 lighthouse? // wheat, deer, crabs, gems, 2 scientists, 126-6 29/32 food
T105 revolt Caste system +1 pop +1 more pop from food from hanging gardens takes effect
T106 lighthouse? // wheat, deer, 6 scientists spy produced 138-6 17/36 food
T107 lighthouse? // wheat, deer, 6 scientists spy produced 174-6 13/36 food
T108 lighthouse? // wheat, deer, 6 scientists spy produced 210-6 9/36 food
T109 lighthouse? // wheat, deer, 6 scientists spy produced 246-6 5/36 food
T110 lighthouse? // wheat, deer, crabs, gems, grass mine 3 4 scientists spy produced 282-6 1/36 food
T111 Great scientist produced.

When I say grow on T101 I mean the food bin shows growth will happen at the end of T101. I should have been more clear I meant work grass tile instead of the grass mine, not turn off a scientist to work a grass tile.

Ok so it does matter that Walter Wolf didn't run 1 scientist in Gems,
Not running one scientist prevents the most aggressive plan to produce the GS on T109 with no whip.
Still possible to produce the GS on T110 without a whip and no starvation
Still possible to produce the GS on T111 with a 2 pop whip of a spy and no starvation.

Gems is the most convenient city to produce a spy for Trojan Horse, however shulec points out that we could whip a spy in Isengard or Silver City?.
Isengard could do another 2 pop whip for a spy after the 2 pop whip of the barracks relatively soon and still get another boost to its chariot production that way, but the spy would take several turns to walk back. Or Isengard could 2 pop whip the spy instead of the barracks on T102 and delay the barracks, axe and chariot out of there. Even a spy whipped on T102 would take 4? turns to get back to Trojan city if the workers built roads for it.
Silver City I think the whip would be a 2 pop whip T105 or maybe a 1 pop whip T104?, but it would take a while to walk over as well.

So is delaying the great scientist from Gems by 1 turn (and possibly delaying a bulb of philosophy) worth
1) getting the backup spy to Trojan city earlier by 4-5 turns?
2) getting a chariot 4-5 turns earlier out of Gems city
--reducing the research out of gems city a little bit.
 
I just confirmed that in the test game. Unfortunately, T111 was too late for Taoism there

So, I'd play tomorrow at about this time. About 23 - 24 hours from now following the last PPP with your suggestions.

I just have to check if I got it all right.

Just one thing bothers me.

If we pre - build the worker in GP farm, and want to whip it for max overflow into the G library, we have to switch back to slavery. We will be in Caste system at the time marble gets hooked up, so another anarchy turn is needed.
 
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