Anti-racist racism

[Domen]

The overwhelming majority of Germans did have a common language

Nonsense. They did not have a common language. Not until the invention of Standard German.

To your knowledge - Dutch is not German only bacause Standard Dutch was created based on a different dialect.

And apart from Standard Dutch and Standard German, no other standard language emerged from germanic dialects of the HRE.

Hahahahaha, don't make me laugh.

During the Reformation large groups of Poles adopted Protestant denominations. And despite the success of Counterreformation, there was always a sizeable group of Protestants. There were also hundreds of thousands of people of other Christian and Non-Christian denominations who identified as Poles.

 

[Linkman226]

The Volga Germans did not even come into existence until Catherine the Great anyways, and weren't that large of a group until the 19th and 20th centuries. I presumed that this was the time period you were talking about, during which Standard German had already been invented.

Can you just admit you were wrong? Seriously. The Jews did not share a common (vernacular) language. Just admit that's true.

 

[Domen]

I wasn't talking about any particular time period. It is irrelevant that "Standard German revival" was a bit earlier than Hebrew revival.

The Jews shared much more in common than any two Germans from two different regions. Jewish culture and ethnic traditions were stronger and more coherent than German. Germans from Prussia differed culturally and religiously from Bavarians more than Balkan Jews did from Jews in Russia.

The Volga Germans did not even come into existence until Catherine the Great anyways

Yes, but after several generations of living there, they already spoke mostly Russian.

Add few more generations and they would have forgotten their German identity and become "good Russians".

Diaspora Jews, on the other hand, managed to preserve their identity during thousands of years.

This tells us a lot about which of the two cultures was "stronger" and more deeply rooted.

 

[Linkman226]

I wasn't talking about any particular time period. It is irrelevant that "Standard German revival" was earlier than Hebrew revival.

You were by implication, seeing as you brought up the Volga Germans.

The Jews shared much more in common than any two Germans from two different regions. Jewish culture and traditions were stronger and more coherwnt than German. Germans from Alsace differed culturally from Bavarians more than Jews from Spain and Jews from Russia.

This is utter hogwash and you know it. Even today, there are huge differences between Ashkenazim, Sephardim, and Mizrahim.

But further, even if it were true, you would not be proving much. The initial claim was that Jews the world over would just welcome each other as if they were brothers, which is a fantastical and unfounded notion.

 

[Domen]

What "huge" differences, for example? All of them still identify as Jews.

On the other hand, "German identity association" have already lost Austrians.

 

[Domen]

the Khazars are the real ancestors of Ashkenazi Jews

The Khazar hypothesis has long been proven as hogwash.

Azerbaijanis are the true descendents of the Khazars.

Yes, the Khazar hypothesis has no confirmation in modern genetic studies. Maybe some fraction of Ashkenazi ancestry is from Khazars, but not any significant part - genetic studies show that Ashkenazi Jews share the same Ancient Middle Eastern ancestry, with some significant Mediterranean (most likely from conversions in Roman times) admixture, as well as smaller admixtures from other peoples (for example Slavic - mostly Polish -, German, French, etc. admixtures - occuring in post-Ancient times when Jews lived in Eastern and Central Europe), with Sephardic and other Jews.

However, what is interesting is that in the past some of Ashkenazi Jews actually did believe in significant Khazar role in their ethnogenesis.

For example Jewish pre-war physical anthropologist and race scientist (yes, these studies were popular back then - also among Jews) from Poland, Dr Henryk Szpidbaum, in his "Racial structure of Polish Jews" (chapter 34. of book "Jews in the Reborn Poland... " published in 1933) believed that not all, but a relatively large part of Polish-Jewish ancestry were Khazar admixtures - and he described Jews with visible Khazar admixture, their anthropological type, as "Przednioazjatycki" ("Western Asiatic"). Of course at that time DNA was unknown, and physical anthropologists were classifiying people into "anthropological types" basing on their physical appearance, skull shape, etc. - believing that physical appearance is strongly correlated with genetic distance or genetic closeness between people (populations which are close to each other genetically would be described as a "race"). Modern genetic studies show that this is not really the case (that's why various Jews can look differently despite having largely common ancestry, as genetic studies show).

Here is a chart made by Dr Henryk Szpidbaum and his attempt of classification:



Szpidbaum also wrote:

"(...) Polish Jews, just like also Jews from other countries, as well as other [Non-Jewish] nationalities, are all complicated mixes of many racial elements. Moreover it must be underlined, that there is no any exclusively Jewish-specific racial element, that cannot be found also among many other [Non-Jewish] peoples. European nations differ from each other only with distinct proportions of individual racial elements. (...)"

=========================================

Some of those old "anthropological types", used before human genome was read (which gives us more reliable ways of estimating genetic distance):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Baltic_race

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenoid_race

Etc., etc.

And here two photos from Szpidbaum's study:

 

[tetley]

(snip)

 

[Mouthwash]

Yes, the Khazar hypothesis has no confirmation in modern genetic studies. Maybe some fraction of Ashkenazi ancestry is from Khazars, but not any significant part - genetic studies show that Ashkenazi Jews share the same Ancient Middle Eastern ancestry, with some significant Mediterranean (most likely from conversions in Roman times) admixture, as well as smaller admixtures from other peoples (for example Slavic - mostly Polish -, German, French, etc. admixtures - occuring in post-Ancient times when Jews lived in Eastern and Central Europe), with Sephardic and other Jews.

However, what is interesting is that in the past some of Ashkenazi Jews actually did believe in significant Khazar role in their ethnogenesis.

For example Jewish pre-war physical anthropologist and race scientist (yes, these studies were popular back then - also among Jews) from Poland, Dr Henryk Szpidbaum, in his "Racial structure of Polish Jews" (chapter 34. of book "Jews in the Reborn Poland... " published in 1933) believed that not all, but a relatively large part of Polish-Jewish ancestry were Khazar admixtures - and he described Jews with visible Khazar admixture, their anthropological type, as "Przednioazjatycki" ("Western Asiatic"). Of course at that time DNA was unknown, and physical anthropologists were classifiying people into "anthropological types" basing on their physical appearance, skull shape, etc. - believing that physical appearance is strongly correlated with genetic distance or genetic closeness between people (populations which are close to each other genetically would be described as a "race"). Modern genetic studies show that this is not really the case (that's why various Jews can look differently despite having largely common ancestry, as genetic studies show).

Yeah, just look at Norman Finkelstein. He doesn't look remotely white, despite the fact that he's as Ashkenazi as they come. In fact he looks distinctly Turkic, even though almost all Ashkenazi Jews are blindingly pale.

 

[Domen]

Only the royal court of the Khazars converted to Judaism - not the entire population.

In fact he looks distinctly Khazar

How do you know how the Khazars looked like ??? I've never seen any Khazar, for example.

 

[Mouthwash]

Only the royal court of the Khazars converted to Judaism - not the entire population.



How do you know how the Khazars looked like ??? I've never seen any Khazar, for example.

Like I said, he looks Turkic (I originally said Khazar but edited it after I realized I didn't know what they looked like either). He definitely doesn't look European in any case.

 

[Domen]

He definitely doesn't look European in any case.

That's funny considering that on AnthroScape Human Biodiversity Forum they "classified" him as:

http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5382053/1/

dinarid maybe? he reminds me a little of Christoph Waltz

Looks Nordic/CM/Med, Nordic/CM in an Eastern European manner, rather "expected", so to say.

Atlantid mixed with Dinarid and CM, with some slight Armenoid in there too.

All of which (Dinarid / Nordic / Cro-Magnid / Mediterranean / Atlantid / Armenoid) are European looks.

Not that any of these classifications (including your own Turkic / Khazar, Mouthwash) is worth a cent, because these are outdated terms.

But I agree that he doesn't look Non-European. He could pass in Europe, though somewhere else perhaps too.

 

[Mouthwash]

Jesus christ. Did you already know about that specific thread or did you find it after I mentioned him?

Oh, and sorry for not being well informed enough on my races. It's not really something I take a great interest in, y'know?

 

[Domen]

I Googled it in 10 seconds after you mentioned him. Ok, maybe 30 seconds.

I typed "classify Norman Finkelstein" in Google browser and it showed up:

https://www.google.pl/search?q=clas...hannel=sb&gfe_rd=cr&ei=hxdxVKLyB8yI8QfInoGYAw

Oh, and sorry for not being well informed enough on my races.

You can't be well informed about races by just comparing how people look like.

Today only genetic research is valid in determining genetic distance (i.e. "race") or ancestry.

In the past they did not know anything about DNA, so they had to compare looks (but this is not a reliable method).

even though almost all Ashkenazi Jews are blindingly pale.

I can give you a link to an article which explains that Europeans got "blindingly pale" during the last 5,000 years or so.

It is due to selective pressures of living in such climate. It does not mean that their ancestors were also pale.

After Jews have moved to Europe (ca. 2,000 years ago or earlier), they also started to get paler with each generation.

Check:

"Europeans have evolved lighter skin in past 5,000 years, study finds":

http://www.world-science.net/othernews/140311_pigment.htm

http://www.uni-mainz.de/presse/17148_ENG_HTML.php

Here is the original study on this subject:

[searching for the link, wait...]

 

[Mouthwash]

I Googled it in 10 seconds after you mentioned him. Ok, maybe 30 seconds.

I typed "classify Norman Finkelstein" in Google browser and it showed up:

Yeah, it's still sort of weird. Perhaps I should say eccentric. But most people wouldn't know what "classify" means in this context, and I think that's healthy.

And check out that last post made on the thread. Maybe you should just take down the link, this is Civfanatics.

 

[Domen]

Ok so instead of editing that post above, here is the link:

Direct evidence for positive selection of skin, hair, and eye pigmentation in Europeans during the last 5,000 years

Significance

Eye, hair, and skin pigmentation are highly variable in humans, particularly in western Eurasian populations. This diversity may be explained by population history, the relaxation of selection pressures, or positive selection. To investigate whether positive natural selection is responsible for depigmentation within Europe, we estimated the strength of selection acting on three genes known to have significant effects on human pigmentation. In a direct approach, these estimates were made using ancient DNA from prehistoric Europeans and computer simulations. This allowed us to determine selection coefficients for a precisely bounded period in the deep past. Our results indicate that strong selection has been operating on pigmentation-related genes within western Eurasia for the past 5,000 years.

Abstract

Pigmentation is a polygenic trait encompassing some of the most visible phenotypic variation observed in humans. Here we present direct estimates of selection acting on functional alleles in three key genes known to be involved in human pigmentation pathways—HERC2, SLC45A2, and TYR—using allele frequency estimates from Eneolithic, Bronze Age, and modern Eastern European samples and forward simulations. Neutrality was overwhelmingly rejected for all alleles studied, with point estimates of selection ranging from around 2–10% per generation. Our results provide direct evidence that strong selection favoring lighter skin, hair, and eye pigmentation has been operating in European populations over the last 5,000 years.

When Jews from what is now Palestine migrated to northern regions of Europe they also were subject to the same process of lightening.

Therefore Ashkenazi Jews have white skin and there is nothing strange in it, given that they have lived in Europe for a few thousand years.

If you have selection of 2% per generation (lowest estimate, as it could be even up to 10% per generation), then it means that in generation "B" 98% have the same skin colour as their parents (generation "A"), but 2% have slightly lighter skin than their parents. And so on, during dozens of generations.

There were many random genetic drifts as well as selective pressures working on Ashkenazi Jews once they came to Europe.

Especially considering all those population bottlenecks (and then recoveries) that they experienced during pogroms, massacres and expulsions.

In a small population, random genetic drifts have bigger impact than in a big population, which is more difficult to alter by random factors.

And nearly all Ashkenazi Jews are descendants of 50,000 breeding individuals who lived 600-650 years ago. It was a severe population bottleneck.

 

[Domen]

He doesn't look remotely white (...) In fact he looks distinctly Turkic

Modern Turks - from Turkey - have perhaps very little of actual Turkic ancestry.

They are descendants of various ancient Anatolians assimilated by Turkish invaders.

If you want to see how actual "genetic Turks" most probably looked like, check:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakuts

 

[Mouthwash]

Ok so instead of editing that post above, here is the link:

Direct evidence for positive selection of skin, hair, and eye pigmentation in Europeans during the last 5,000 years

I was referring to the "zetaboards" link.

And nearly all Ashkenazi Jews are descendants of 50,000 breeding individuals who lived 600-650 years ago. It was a severe population bottleneck.

Latest research says 350 people, actually.

 

[Domen]

I don't think that link above is a serious scientific website.

This below is a serious scientific website and it says 50,000 not 350:

http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002-9297(10)00246-6

Abraham's Children in the Genome Era: Major Jewish Diaspora Populations Comprise Distinct Genetic Clusters with Shared Middle Eastern Ancestry

For more than a century, Jews and non-Jews alike have tried to define the relatedness of contemporary Jewish people. Previous genetic studies of blood group and serum markers suggested that Jewish groups had Middle Eastern origin with greater genetic similarity between paired Jewish populations. However, these and successor studies of monoallelic Y chromosomal and mitochondrial genetic markers did not resolve the issues of within and between-group Jewish genetic identity. Here, genome-wide analysis of seven Jewish groups (Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, Italian, Turkish, Greek, and Ashkenazi) and comparison with non-Jewish groups demonstrated distinctive Jewish population clusters, each with shared Middle Eastern ancestry, proximity to contemporary Middle Eastern populations, and variable degrees of European and North African admixture. Two major groups were identified by principal component, phylogenetic, and identity by descent (IBD) analysis: Middle Eastern Jews and European/Syrian Jews. The IBD segment sharing and the proximity of European Jews to each other and to southern European populations suggested similar origins for European Jewry and refuted large-scale genetic contributions of Central and Eastern European and Slavic populations to the formation of Ashkenazi Jewry. Rapid decay of IBD in Ashkenazi Jewish genomes was consistent with a severe bottleneck followed by large expansion, such as occurred with the so-called demographic miracle of population expansion from 50,000 people at the beginning of the 15th century to 5,000,000 people in the 19th century. Thus, this study demonstrates that European/Syrian and Middle Eastern Jews represent a series of geographical isolates or clusters woven together by shared IBD genetic threads.

Mind that it doesn't mean that there were in total only 50,000 Ashkenazi Jews alive in year 1400.

It means that modern people are descendants of 50,000. There could be even 100,000 - 150,000 Ashkenazi Jews alive in 1400, but only 50,000 produced genetic lineages that survived to our times. Other lineages got extinct. That's why I wrote 50,000 "breeding" (continuously) individuals.

 

[Mouthwash]

I don't think that link above is a serious scientific website.

It's not meant to be. Why not look at the study itself (couldn't find it with a quick Google search, but I didn't try very hard)?

 

[Domen]

Ok, thank you man! That's quite unbelievable, huh. Here it is - the original study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4164776/

Jeez, just 350 people?! Maybe they made a mistake in their maths / calculations?

Here is a diagram that shows what allegedly happened, according to this study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4164776/figure/f4/

Actually not 350 but even 330 individuals (according to this diagram):



"Breeding like rabbits" should now be replaced by "breeding like Ashkenazim". If this is true.

I've always read that immigration of Jewish refugees to Poland was a long process, lasting few centuries.

But if this is true then this would mean that there were 350 Jews who escaped to Poland and then just increased their numbers here.

=============================

To be honest - even 50,000 was quite amazing, and now 350 or even 330 - well, this is really hard to believe.

=============================

The bottleneck was 250 - 420 individuals (average is 335).

They were increasing in numbers at rate of 16% - 53% per generation:

We used the lengths of shared segments (Fig. 3c) to infer the parameters of a recent AJ bottleneck (effective size 250–420; 25–32 generations ago) followed by rapid exponential expansion (rate per generation 16–53%)

16% - 53% per generation - perhaps Jews (or Poland, where they lived) had modern medicine already in the Middle Ages !!! LOL.

Or something is just wrong with this study and its result.