Is Islam The Problem?

[brennan]

And what does the Quran tell Muslims to do in the event of "attacking Muslims...atrocities against Muslims... oppression against Muslims...aggression against Muslims"? Shall we see what Osama Bin Laden thought...?

We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson."

 

[JollyRoger]

Where is the United States mentioned in the Quran?

 

[brennan]

Under the generic mandate to fight/kill/terrorise 'enemies of Islam'.

 

[Senethro]

So in this nuanced position of yours, how do you reconcile your average Muslims behaviour having little on common with OBL's?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Under the generic mandate to fight/kill/terrorise 'enemies of Islam'.

There is not a single scripture in Islam telling Muslims to "terrorise 'enemies of Islam'". So you continue to ignore the obvious fact that Islam specifically prohibits killing civilians? That every single Muslim terrorist who does so is guilty of "blasphemy"? That they are "apostates" for rejecting Islam?

 

[Ironsided]

Let’s see here. OBL declared war on the most blatant force of terror in the world – The United States of America and by association all other NATO countries. There are millions of perfectly innocent people in Afghanistan and Pakistan walking the streets right this second in terror of drone strikes. Fancy that.

Moral Tribes.

 

[Formaldehyde]

But that is entirely different. Christian and Jewish state terrorism is obviously exempt. The god shared by all 3 religions is clearly on our side, not theirs.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

But that is entirely different. Christian and Jewish state terrorism is obviously exempt. The god shared by all 3 religions is clearly on our side, not theirs.

Rather than taking this attitude, doesn't it make sense to cover why none of the 3 are exempt?

We could do with less hatemongering, and quoted post carries the same "us vs them" mentality as the concept posited by the OP. What utility do you expect to gain by constantly categorizing those with differing viewpoints and trying to make them look bad?

You could have pointed out that there are other religions which, to at least some extent, commit terror acts also, and that it is mistaken to assert otherwise, but the tone quoted carries instead an implication that those you disagree with are foolish. What utility does that stance carry in practice? It's better than violence or bigotry, but that doesn't mean it's useful.

 

[Formaldehyde]

It is called "sarcasm". Perhaps you have heard of it before?

What "utility do you expect to gain" by continuing to make these nonsensical personal attacks? My comment is really no different than Ironsided's or dozens of others in this thread in response to the post arbitrarily chosen to be the OP. If you don't like my posts so much I suggest you not read them, and spare everybody else the personal commentary for a welcome change.

And ironically, I have always been categorically opposed to this "us vs them" nonsense. That has really been my own point all along. But apparently that has completely escaped your notice despite my extensive posts in this matter.

And for the record, I don't "hate" anybody. To suggest I do is disingenuous at best.

 

[Ironsided]

For the record. I'm with Forma.

edit: My tribe.

 

[onejayhawk]

It is called "sarcasm". Perhaps you have heard of it before?

What "utility do you expect to gain" by continuing to make these nonsensical personal attacks? My comment is really no different than Ironsided's or dozens of others in this thread in response to the post arbitrarily chosen to be the OP. If you don't like my posts so much I suggest you not read them, and spare everybody else the personal commentary for a welcome change.

And ironically, I have always been categorically opposed to this "us vs them" nonsense. That has really been my own point all along. But apparently that has completely escaped your notice despite my extensive posts in this matter.

And for the record, I don't "hate" anybody. To suggest I do is disingenuous at best.

Really? Sure about that?

J

 

[Formaldehyde]

Nope. Not even you or Hillary. (Unlike you.)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

And ironically, I have always been categorically opposed to this "us vs them" nonsense.

Could have fooled me. Maybe I just misread the sarcasm. I did not personally attack you, just the posting style that habitually attempts to make others appear foolish, which is common in OT.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Since you admit that you don't even understand my position in this matter, it is no wonder you also so badly characterize my supposed motives, just like so many others in this forum who would rather discuss me instead of the topic as Funky continues to try to do.

And yes, that is a personal attack just like the previous ones were. Again, if you don't like what I post just don't read it and keep your personal opinions about me to yourself. It just derails the threads.

 

[Narz]

Isn't jihad an important part of Islam?

I can't see religion surviving the next couple hundred years without becoming more & more radical.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Jihad just means struggle except to those who violate the basic precepts of their own religion.

Do you think all religions will become more radical? The opposite seems to be actually happening, and it has been getting better now for many centuries.

 

[Borachio]

Well, inclusivity and universalism are pretty radical in themselves, aren't they?

 

[brennan]

So in this nuanced position of yours, how do you reconcile your average Muslims behaviour having little on common with OBL's?

Position of mine? When did you decide that I was Osama Bin Laden???

I think the average Muslim disagrees with OBL.

See how simple this is?

OBL and the other Jihadists believe(d) they act with a divine mandate. Thus their actions are everything to do with their religion. Not everyone agrees with their interpretation of either the Quran or the paradigm of global realpolitic (The West is at war with Islam). That doesn't mean that their actions cannot possibly have religious motivation.

 

[Funky]

Isn't jihad an important part of Islam?

This is a small selection of verses inciting violence against unbelievers among Muslims. It is not an exhaustive list - there are more of them in the Quran and I haven't even mentioned the Hadith. Jihad and the fight against unbelievers is one of the central messages of Islamic scripture.

"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And disbelief or unrest is worse than killing (...)
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more disbelief..."
Quran (2:191-193)

"Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."
Quran (2:244)

"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Quran (2:216)

"As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
Quran (3:56)

"Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."
Quran (4:74)

"Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"
Quran (4:76)

"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
Quran (4:89)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
Quran (5:33)

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
Quran (8:12)

"O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."
Quran (8:39)

"And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."
Quran (8:59-60)

"So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them"
Quran (9:5)

"Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people."
Quran (9:14)

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Quran (9:29)

"O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."
Quran (9:123)

"And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction."
Quran (17:16)

"Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness..."
Quran (25:52)

"If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter."
Quran (33:60-62)

"Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks..."
Quran (47:3-4)

"Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way"
Quran (61:4)

"He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist."
Quran (61:9)

"O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."
Quran (66:9)

 

[Borachio]

OK. Let's assume, just for argument's sake, that Islam is the Problem?

Whatchagonnadoaboutit?